Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

gregcantrall said:
Knowledge and strategy can overcome sheer power.
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The Academy s are getting the knowledge to the Young players. The first thing I look for in the Young is the ability to shift hands. At 16 my neace was a natural and amazing ability equal with either hand. Then someone gave her lessons and told her she was right handed. Grrrrrr.
 
I’ll put myself into the “do whatever works for you” category, line up my shot and watch the cue ball. It might be over half a century of playing tennis where I’ve lost count of the number of shots I missed when I was watching where I wanted the ball to go instead of where it was when I hit it.

I view this as maybe a case of misused common cause correlation. Great players watch the object ball, but also have perfect, consistent and unvarying form, and trust that so they don’t need to watch their cue tip to make last second corrections. To do something just because that is what the pros do without meeting all the underlying assumptions might not always be the best plan for some of the rest of us.
 
Das Cue-Boot said:
I’ll put myself into the “do whatever works for you” category, line up my shot and watch the cue ball. It might be over half a century of playing tennis where I’ve lost count of the number of shots I missed when I was watching where I wanted the ball to go instead of where it was when I hit it.

I view this as maybe a case of misused common cause correlation. Great players watch the object ball, but also have perfect, consistent and unvarying form, and trust that so they don’t need to watch their cue tip to make last second corrections. To do something just because that is what the pros do without meeting all the underlying assumptions might not always be the best plan for some of the rest of us.
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Agreed. My view is that if your fundamentals are sound you could use either approach and that if OB last causes you to miss, you need to work on your stroke.

I've tried CB last and OB last and like I have said before (most likely on this thread LoL) I tend to cinch it when it is OB last and miss when it is CB last, so that it what I roll with. It could have something to do with my hunting and target shooting experience. But YMMV so if I was instructing a player (have done some of that on the side) I would have them try both approaches to find out which works best for them, as opposed to forcing them to use the "correct" approach. If OB last is not a problem, their stroke is probably true, even if the rest of their fundamentals are not optimal. A couple of my sparring partners and myself will be conducting a local pool school session on the 7th so I may try that out on one of the students and see what happens.
 
Das Cue-Boot said:
I’ll put myself into the “do whatever works for you” category, line up my shot and watch the cue ball. It might be over half a century of playing tennis where I’ve lost count of the number of shots I missed when I was watching where I wanted the ball to go instead of where it was when I hit it.

I view this as maybe a case of misused common cause correlation. Great players watch the object ball, but also have perfect, consistent and unvarying form, and trust that so they don’t need to watch their cue tip to make last second corrections. To do something just because that is what the pros do without meeting all the underlying assumptions might not always be the best plan for some of the rest of us.
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My current preference is cue ball. I have however found occasion to look at the object ball last. (Rare)
IMHO it's no different from right vs left. I encourage experiment in practice. You never know what you might discover.
 
I have no doubt posted in this thread, lost in the mist now so I'll post again. I look at the object ball last, except when I don't. If the shot is where it puts a crick in my neck to look at the object ball I just pick a spot on the cue ball's path to the object ball and look at that. Sometimes I find it more convenient to look at a spot on what would be the extended line if the object ball wasn't there.

Many years ago I played cue ball last for three weeks or so. For me at that stage I couldn't tell any difference in effectiveness looking at cue ball last, object ball last, a spot on the table, or just let my eyes unlock into "the thousand yard stare." Once I locked into a shot I was locked in.

No doubt mentioned in this thread already and I am butchering the spelling of his name but Ralf Souquet always looked at the cue ball last including when he was rated number one in the world. In addition, it isn't uncommon at all to see people who really think they look at object ball last shift their eyes to the cue ball as the stick starts forward for the last time. Without the video they would insist they look at object ball last!

Another test I conducted without telling people what I was testing was how accurately people hit the cue ball. Out of a dozen players or more two hit exactly where they meant to. One was an absolute banger, one approaching A or shortstop level. Both looked at the cue ball last. Those that looked at the object ball last all hit a tenth inch off or more. Not a lot but on that last 5% or less of shots that make the difference between winning and losing I would much prefer to know I am hitting the cue ball spot on.

I do hit the cue ball spot on when in tune. I was surprised to learn that out of tune I hit the cue ball almost an eighth high and about half that to the left. I don't hit all around the spot I am trying to hit, every shot will be as described. I hit more consistently than expected even when it was consistently wrong! I thought I would hit with an even pattern of error around the spot I was planning to hit.

One thing that did not work for me is the sometimes recommended eye pattern of following the tip. Look at the object ball when the tip is pulled back, the cue ball when approaching it. This busy eye pattern was a nonstarter for me.

Many people would be surprised to learn that they shoot about the same with their eyes closed once everything is lined up. Looking away affects muscle groups and needs practice for maximum performance. However closing your eyes will have little or no effect on how you shoot. Might help since you are less inclined to steer.

Shoot however you are comfortable and accustomed to. The only thing I recommend to all is to let your vision settle in one place twenty or thirty seconds before shooting.

Hu
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"

He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"

Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.

DCP
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Many years ago when the earth still had only slightly rounded corners I watched Johnny Archer waggle his stick around over a bar table that still had at least ten balls on it. The cue ball was against the foot rail near the middle, the fifteen against the head rail about one diamond out on a bar table. When Johnny got through with his magic wand he shot and hit eight rails, all six plus a couple twice! He also hit the fifteen perfectly. Fortunately for me the fifteen ran out of steam in the jaws of the corner pocket. This was a "Z" kick, almost made me dizzy!

Although the fifteen didn't fall I still consider that the greatest shot I have ever seen. I spent several hours trying to duplicate it and couldn't even hit the fifteen. I think I may have hit it twice in two hours and never came close to pocketing it and that was after clearing all of the balls not directly involved in the shot off the table.

All of this is to say, when Johnny wants to talk about aiming I am all ears!

Hu
 
Stephen Hendry's emphasis on finding the spot of aim on the object ball and staying with it, caries a lot of weight with me. My interpretation has me making sure I have not lost that point of aim in the shifts of the eyes.
I have experimented with different points of focus on the aiming line at strike, even infinity. My favorite now is the point my cue would exit the back side of the cue ball.
It's a balance between the aim and execution. The pause and ring finger trigger taught by Barry Stark are keys for me as well. When I get it all right I experience my best accuracy in the final resting place for the cue ball after the object ball leaves the table.
 
ShootingArts said:
I have no doubt posted in this thread, lost in the mist now so I'll post again. I look at the object ball last, except when I don't. If the shot is where it puts a crick in my neck to look at the object ball I just pick a spot on the cue ball's path to the object ball and look at that. Sometimes I find it more convenient to look at a spot on what would be the extended line if the object ball wasn't there.

Many years ago I played cue ball last for three weeks or so. For me at that stage I couldn't tell any difference in effectiveness looking at cue ball last, object ball last, a spot on the table, or just let my eyes unlock into "the thousand yard stare." Once I locked into a shot I was locked in.

No doubt mentioned in this thread already and I am butchering the spelling of his name but Ralf Souquet always looked at the cue ball last including when he was rated number one in the world. In addition, it isn't uncommon at all to see people who really think they look at object ball last shift their eyes to the cue ball as the stick starts forward for the last time. Without the video they would insist they look at object ball last!

Another test I conducted without telling people what I was testing was how accurately people hit the cue ball. Out of a dozen players or more two hit exactly where they meant to. One was an absolute banger, one approaching A or shortstop level. Both looked at the cue ball last. Those that looked at the object ball last all hit a tenth inch off or more. Not a lot but on that last 5% or less of shots that make the difference between winning and losing I would much prefer to know I am hitting the cue ball spot on.

I do hit the cue ball spot on when in tune. I was surprised to learn that out of tune I hit the cue ball almost an eighth high and about half that to the left. I don't hit all around the spot I am trying to hit, every shot will be as described. I hit more consistently than expected even when it was consistently wrong! I thought I would hit with an even pattern of error around the spot I was planning to hit.

One thing that did not work for me is the sometimes recommended eye pattern of following the tip. Look at the object ball when the tip is pulled back, the cue ball when approaching it. This busy eye pattern was a nonstarter for me.

Many people would be surprised to learn that they shoot about the same with their eyes closed once everything is lined up. Looking away affects muscle groups and needs practice for maximum performance. However closing your eyes will have little or no effect on how you shoot. Might help since you are less inclined to steer.

Shoot however you are comfortable and accustomed to. The only thing I recommend to all is to let your vision settle in one place twenty or thirty seconds before shooting.

Hu
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Too lazy to go back and read all the posts in this thread (might possibly even include some forgotten ones of mine?). But regardless, I’ll relate my experience:
When I was a young teen hotshot, beating most everyone in my small hometown, I ended up playing (and losing to) a room owner in Indianapolis. He finally told me he knew he could beat anybody who didn’t look at the OB last. I grew up watching the CB last, and if not careful, will relapse when stressed. But, when the chips are down and I HAVE to pocket a shot, and force myself to focus intently on the OB when pulling the trigger, some magical emotional feeling comes over me, as if some remote mystical force is sending that OB right down the pocket’s throat for me as I watch. Go figure. If only I could harness that force 100% of the time.
 
DynoDan said:
Too lazy to go back and read all the posts in this thread (might possibly even include some forgotten ones of mine?). But regardless, I’ll relate my experience:
When I was a young teen hotshot, beating most everyone in my small hometown, I ended up playing (and losing to) a room owner in Indianapolis. He finally told me he knew he could beat anybody who didn’t look at the OB last. I grew up watching the CB last, and if not careful, will relapse when stressed. But, when the chips are down and I HAVE to pocket a shot, and force myself to focus intently on the OB when pulling the trigger, some magical emotional feeling comes over me, as if some remote mystical force is sending that OB right down the pocket’s throat for me as I watch. Go figure. If only I could harness that force 100% of the time.
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I experience that feeling as well. I stare at the desired OB point of impact before I get down on the shot and try to keep my eye on the POI while getting down. After I have lined up on the CB and returned my focus to the OB POI, I do not look back at the CB. Stroke, follow through, ball down. One of my sparring partners asked me what is going through my mind when I am doing that... my reply was, "nothing." It's almost like a mini-meditation, followed by a small endorphin rush.
 
gregcantrall said:
My current preference is cue ball. I have however found occasion to look at the object ball last. (Rare)
IMHO it's no different from right vs left. I encourage experiment in practice. You never know what you might discover.
Click to expand...
I am really having trouble lately when the cue ball is close to the rail and my bridge / hand / fingers are on the rail, even for relatively easy shots. I have found it very helpful for those shots to be looking at the cue ball last. It just helps me deliver a better stroke. Otherwise, it is absolutely always object ball last.
 
ChrisinNC said:
I don’t think 20-30 seconds is necessary for most players. More like 5–15 seconds.
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I don't know that five seconds would serve the "quiet eye" purpose. Fifteen seconds probably would. However, nobody is likely to put a clock on how long they look at a pool ball. Either fifteen or twenty seconds is a lot longer than people think unless they are counting which would destroy the purpose of looking at the ball anyway.

I'll stick to advising 20-30 seconds knowing that estimating that will have most people pausing for fifteen or twenty seconds, maybe less. Of course people can settle on whatever works for them.

Hu
 
ChrisinNC said:
I am really having trouble lately when the cue ball is close to the rail and my bridge / hand / fingers are on the rail, even for relatively easy shots. I have found it very helpful for those shots to be looking at the cue ball last. It just helps me deliver a better stroke. Otherwise, it is absolutely always object ball last.
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Against the rail and jump shot were cue ball way back when I was an object ball last guy.
I am not trying to sell, just trying to relate my experience. Better cue ball control is what I experience since making the switch. I am not just looking at the cue ball, I am able to be more accurate in where I strike and the path through the ball by watching it. Perhaps my ball pocketing was as good object ball last. My cue ball control is much better focused on the path of the tip through the ball.
 
ShootingArts said:
I don't know that five seconds would serve the "quiet eye" purpose. Fifteen seconds probably would. However, nobody is likely to put a clock on how long they look at a pool ball. Either fifteen or twenty seconds is a lot longer than people think unless they are counting which would destroy the purpose of looking at the ball anyway.

I'll stick to advising 20-30 seconds knowing that estimating that will have most people pausing for fifteen or twenty seconds, maybe less. Of course people can settle on whatever works for them.

Hu
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Ronnie O'Sullivan average of less than 15 seconds per shot comes to mind. I think the last match I watched he was down to 12 second average. He does pause but not for long😉. Rocket Man. I have noticed a little longer pause on the difficult situations.
When I am in stroke and in the zone my pause at the back is in the 1.5 to 2 second range. However long it takes for the ring finger to take the lead .🤷 Barry Stark's coaching on YouTube has helped me.
 
gregcantrall said:
Ronnie O'Sullivan average of less than 15 seconds per shot comes to mind. I think the last match I watched he was down to 12 second average. He does pause but not for long😉. Rocket Man. I have noticed a little longer pause on the difficult situations.
When I am in stroke and in the zone my pause at the back is in the 1.5 to 2 second range. However long it takes for the ring finger to take the lead .🤷 Barry Stark's coaching on YouTube has helped me.
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Don't confuse the eye pausing in one place with the stick pausing. The eye can lock in one place without the stick ever pausing. I shoot very fast sometimes myself. That is because the entire inning is one continuous action planned out before the first shot.

Shooting a pistol, my maximum speed is five targets in a second. However, my eyes are on my front sight if using iron sights or on the dot projected on the lens of my optical sight. In a good run I might shoot twelve or more targets but my eyes never left my sights.

Pool I acquire the cue ball as I move around the table. As my bridge hand settles I acquire the object ball. I generally practice stroke one to three times before firing but nothing is set in stone and if I can only see a part of the object ball I am likely to slow to a screeching halt and study things much closer!

Hu
 
Protractor said:
I experience that feeling as well. I stare at the desired OB point of impact before I get down on the shot and try to keep my eye on the POI while getting down. After I have lined up on the CB and returned my focus to the OB POI, I do not look back at the CB. Stroke, follow through, ball down. One of my sparring partners asked me what is going through my mind when I am doing that... my reply was, "nothing." It's almost like a mini-meditation, followed by a small endorphin rush.
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I think the real point is ‘effort’. We dabblers forget that the pros work harder than us. I grew up assuming pool was merely a ‘game’ (a fun pastime). I never had to feed a family or pay rent depending on the outcome. Inherently lazy, I find it extremely difficult to put out the effort required to win consistently. Those few moments (intently focusing on & pocketing the OB) that transcend, are probably merely a brief glimpse into an alien world.
 
ChrisinNC said:
I am really having trouble lately when the cue ball is close to the rail and my bridge / hand / fingers are on the rail, even for relatively easy shots. I have found it very helpful for those shots to be looking at the cue ball last. It just helps me deliver a better stroke. Otherwise, it is absolutely always object ball last.
Click to expand...
I do use CB last on certain shots: jump, hiked up shots, such as shooting over a ball or anything else where I might not be able to see both the CB and OB in the visual frame. As long as my point of aim and stroke are on the money, it works.
 
I only look at the object ball last on occasion. Usually bearing down on a very difficult shot. Other than that, cue ball last here!
 
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