Focus focus focus. My focus relies on more than just the vision. I get the best results focused on where the tip would exit the back side of the cue ball.
Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
My shot making consistency has really improved looking at the cue ball last for 2 weeks now, but I still haven’t locked in on the speed control as of yet. I’m hoping that will come.The biggest difference I find now looking at the cue ball as I strike it is accuracy. Pocketing the ball is just the first part of accurate. My speed and spin control is better. I also get feedback watching the ball as it leaves the tip and the rotation it takes. So in practice I can set it up and do it again with a micron adjustment. Hence the Experiment. If my eyes have already left the cue ball I can't detect that micron variation in the strike.
I am finding my draw stroke is far more effective focusing on the cue ball last - often over drawing shots, which is actually encouraging for me once I learn to better control it. I’m hoping occasional miscues when I try to attempt a power draw stroke will be a thing of the past now that I’m staying focused on the cue ball throughout the entire stroke.
That comes with the ring finger. Barry Stark's videos on the grip are pure gold.
And if that ain't enough here's part 4
One of my positive thoughts is putting that finger in charge. Since it's a new habit it warrant the pause at the back that Barry teaches as well. Giving that finger the Stroke just to the back of the ball is my thought but not the actual. If I can wait for the Feeling in the ring finger plus just watching the tip go through the ball, I can get results that often even surprise myself.
Bonus Barry Review of Basics.
My latest experiment with making shorts.
Well the private message relates a Stephen Hendry level accomplish mint. Sorry for leaking.
Greg, researching this topic on YouTube, there are a number of snooker instructors who say it’s fine either way as far as focusing on cue ball last or object ball last during the stroke, as long as you are committed to your routine.Well the private message relates a Stephen Hendry level accomplish mint. Sorry for leaking.
Darren Appleton also states in his instructional video on eye patterns that it is fine either way, whatever preference works best for the individual player. Until a player truly gives all the various methods a try, they may never truly know what method works best for them.
That refresh me
I concur . My detective work including watching the Matchroom events and watching eye patern. My research indicates your assessment is spot on.
Any trend I suspect in the strongest players is just a suspicion. I know what is working best for me.
Mark Williams giving the best demonstrations of various methods. Even without his shirt...no wait that was at interview.
I have not read this thread in maybe a year or so and I have not gone back to catch up what I missed. I did follow this thread carefully when it was new and posted a few times.
I spent about a year using cue ball last and found it helped my pocketing greatly. After that I spent another 8 or 9 months trying to use object ball last and my pocketing deteriorated. Then when I went back to cue ball last my game improved immensely. What I learned watching the pros do seemingly a dozen micro strokes to get their tip placement perfect is how important hitting that spot is! So if hitting the cue ball precisely is so important perhaps I should be looking at the spot on the cue ball I need to hit to get the result I want.
So the question becomes am I better at sending my cue ball on the line needed to execute the shot while looking at the cue ball or am I better at hitting the very precise spot on the cue ball needed while looking 5 feet down the table? For me it's clear I can't hit the precise spot on the cue ball without looking at that spot. I know for others they can't roll the cue ball on the needed shot line without looking at the object ball. So as usual to each his own.
I spent about a year using cue ball last and found it helped my pocketing greatly. After that I spent another 8 or 9 months trying to use object ball last and my pocketing deteriorated. Then when I went back to cue ball last my game improved immensely. What I learned watching the pros do seemingly a dozen micro strokes to get their tip placement perfect is how important hitting that spot is! So if hitting the cue ball precisely is so important perhaps I should be looking at the spot on the cue ball I need to hit to get the result I want.
So the question becomes am I better at sending my cue ball on the line needed to execute the shot while looking at the cue ball or am I better at hitting the very precise spot on the cue ball needed while looking 5 feet down the table? For me it's clear I can't hit the precise spot on the cue ball without looking at that spot. I know for others they can't roll the cue ball on the needed shot line without looking at the object ball. So as usual to each his own.
Excellent summary as to the difference and why a number of players haven discovered that focusing on the cue ball last for the entirety of the stroke (from the start of the backstroke through the completion of the follow through) seems to work better for them.
After 50+ years of shifting my eyes to the target (object ball) just before starting my backstroke or at some point during my backstroke, you can now count me in that small percentage of pool players who are focusing on the cue ball last. After less than one month, I’m very encouraged by my results.
Knowing with certainty where my eyes will remain focused through the entire stroke has allowed me to commit to executing a more consistent and confident stroke.
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Well spoken!
The precision I see executed in the Snooker Masters surely boils down to the precise strike on the White. The camera work on the event gives good looks at the eye patern of each player. Well at times, I need to be paying attention.
I see quite a lot of different tempo in the snooker players. Some have quick eye movement others are more leisurely. I tend to the later and like you I prefer to sight the white longer. My challenge is to get the cue through the ball. My sight is on the point of contact but my aim is where the cue tip would exit the white.
I can’t do that. I can certainly move my eyes back and forth from object ball target to cue ball without moving my head and I do so when I’m locking in on the line and on the precise point I’m planning to strike the ball with the tip, but as far as which one I’m looking at during the stroke, for me it has to be one or the other.
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I expect it could be the best way for some. Experiment experiment experiment, but do it in practice. Going into a match I must have confidence that my method is the best for me.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Hi. I’ve only digested a fraction of this ancient thread, but I did chew on a good bit of it and have a few thoughts.
Ultimately, I think CB or OB last doesn’t really matter. Like many things in pool we see many clear examples of multiple approaches at the pro level, so obviously either can work fine.
I’m an OB-last guy, but I’ve played around with CB-last a bit. Like anything new/unfamiliar, I find it awkward, but I did glean some perspectives (pun intended) from trying it over a few long solo sessions.
First, I think there is a clear advantage of OB-last eye pattern that may have not been discussed yet. I was taught to properly stay down on the shot by freezing on followthru post CB contact & and carefully watching the OB all the way into pocket, then while still frozen, transition eyeballs to the CB, watching it until it stops - only now is our stroke over & we come up.
Developing this discipline accomplishes many things, the obvious benefit is to ensure consistent statue-like followthru & staying down. But another huge reason to observe how & where the OB hits into the pocket (or rail) is that this provides important feedback to our visual processing system. High level players target a very specific way to pot the OB into the pocket & a very precise CB landing zone on each shot. Its not enough to just know you made the OB. Knowing exactly where in the pocket (inner/center/outer zone) the OB hit and how & where exactly the CB landed - vs the original visualized plan - (ie slight over-cut when I meant to split the pocket, etc) provides a never ending stream of closed loop calibration feedback to our pool brain/database.
When I use CB-last - I can’t seem to watch the OB into the pocket very well as I shoot. Impairing the feedback system described above - is a huge negative issue for me. Possibly if I spent more time with CB last patterns, I could learn to transition my eyes quickly or differently to accomplish the same result using CB last that I get with OB last - but I had a hard time with this issue & see no compelling reason to make such investment.
Next, I think there is a fundamental fallacy in some of the stated rationale for CB-last. Obviously we all agree that its critical to acheive maximum accuracy on our CB hit. The CB-last proponents have implied that the CB-last eye pattern is perhaps a better way to ensure CB hit accuracy.
I dispute that logic; as described above, high level players target very specific accuracy for both OB & CB - which can only be achieved with the specific CB hit that they have visualized & planned for. Carefully observing the actual results of OB & CB reactions & landing spots - provides perfectly precise before/after feedback as to whether you hit the CB where you wanted to or not. To suggest that staring at the CB last is the best way to see exactly where you hit it - is a mistake IMO.
Finally, whether we use CB or OB last eye pattern, for most pool shots, we can still visually track ball B in our unfocused outer vision, even when we are hard focused with our center vision on ball A. Human peripheral vision Is highly sensitive to contrast, shapes, light, & motion. With good fundamentals, we can still use our blurry peripheral vision to maintain & tweak our alignment to ball B while our primary optical focus is held on ball A. And vice versa.
This is exactly how our vision works when shooting any firearm with iron sights. The target, front sight, and the rear sight must all be perfectly aligned - yet our eyes can only focus on one depth plane at a time. Most pros use & teach front sight focus, with loose fuzzy view of the rear sight & the target. However, there is a small minority (maybe 5%) of high level pistol shooters that use hard optical focus on the target and loose blurry view on both iron sights. This approach gains a bit of speed at a tradeoff cost of decreased but still acceptable accuracy. An an ex semi competitive shooter who uses front sight focus - in pool vision wise, I intuitively equate the pocket to the target, the front sight to the OB, rear sight as the CB. Obviously its not a perfect analogy, but maybe sort of useful.
By the way, just to clarify, when down on the balls I spend a large majority of my visual time & energy focused on the CB (like maybe 75%) vs the OB. Actually all i ever look at on the OB is the center or edge, as I create all my angles using my tip at the CB (separate topic). However I transition my eyes one last time to the OB and lock on it as I deliver the final stroke. This provides a perfect 300 ms ish lock from Quiet-Eye theory (for those into that highly relevant element of sports psychology) just as I transition into forward stroke delivery and a smooth natural visual lock to track the OB from the moment it’s struck through to its impact destination.
I’m not advocating OB last, or disputing that CB last isn’t better for some folks. I’m simply highlighting that its a pretty complex topic, with tradeoffs and many personal variables involved.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Ultimately, I think CB or OB last doesn’t really matter. Like many things in pool we see many clear examples of multiple approaches at the pro level, so obviously either can work fine.
I’m an OB-last guy, but I’ve played around with CB-last a bit. Like anything new/unfamiliar, I find it awkward, but I did glean some perspectives (pun intended) from trying it over a few long solo sessions.
First, I think there is a clear advantage of OB-last eye pattern that may have not been discussed yet. I was taught to properly stay down on the shot by freezing on followthru post CB contact & and carefully watching the OB all the way into pocket, then while still frozen, transition eyeballs to the CB, watching it until it stops - only now is our stroke over & we come up.
Developing this discipline accomplishes many things, the obvious benefit is to ensure consistent statue-like followthru & staying down. But another huge reason to observe how & where the OB hits into the pocket (or rail) is that this provides important feedback to our visual processing system. High level players target a very specific way to pot the OB into the pocket & a very precise CB landing zone on each shot. Its not enough to just know you made the OB. Knowing exactly where in the pocket (inner/center/outer zone) the OB hit and how & where exactly the CB landed - vs the original visualized plan - (ie slight over-cut when I meant to split the pocket, etc) provides a never ending stream of closed loop calibration feedback to our pool brain/database.
When I use CB-last - I can’t seem to watch the OB into the pocket very well as I shoot. Impairing the feedback system described above - is a huge negative issue for me. Possibly if I spent more time with CB last patterns, I could learn to transition my eyes quickly or differently to accomplish the same result using CB last that I get with OB last - but I had a hard time with this issue & see no compelling reason to make such investment.
Next, I think there is a fundamental fallacy in some of the stated rationale for CB-last. Obviously we all agree that its critical to acheive maximum accuracy on our CB hit. The CB-last proponents have implied that the CB-last eye pattern is perhaps a better way to ensure CB hit accuracy.
I dispute that logic; as described above, high level players target very specific accuracy for both OB & CB - which can only be achieved with the specific CB hit that they have visualized & planned for. Carefully observing the actual results of OB & CB reactions & landing spots - provides perfectly precise before/after feedback as to whether you hit the CB where you wanted to or not. To suggest that staring at the CB last is the best way to see exactly where you hit it - is a mistake IMO.
Finally, whether we use CB or OB last eye pattern, for most pool shots, we can still visually track ball B in our unfocused outer vision, even when we are hard focused with our center vision on ball A. Human peripheral vision Is highly sensitive to contrast, shapes, light, & motion. With good fundamentals, we can still use our blurry peripheral vision to maintain & tweak our alignment to ball B while our primary optical focus is held on ball A. And vice versa.
This is exactly how our vision works when shooting any firearm with iron sights. The target, front sight, and the rear sight must all be perfectly aligned - yet our eyes can only focus on one depth plane at a time. Most pros use & teach front sight focus, with loose fuzzy view of the rear sight & the target. However, there is a small minority (maybe 5%) of high level pistol shooters that use hard optical focus on the target and loose blurry view on both iron sights. This approach gains a bit of speed at a tradeoff cost of decreased but still acceptable accuracy. An an ex semi competitive shooter who uses front sight focus - in pool vision wise, I intuitively equate the pocket to the target, the front sight to the OB, rear sight as the CB. Obviously its not a perfect analogy, but maybe sort of useful.
By the way, just to clarify, when down on the balls I spend a large majority of my visual time & energy focused on the CB (like maybe 75%) vs the OB. Actually all i ever look at on the OB is the center or edge, as I create all my angles using my tip at the CB (separate topic). However I transition my eyes one last time to the OB and lock on it as I deliver the final stroke. This provides a perfect 300 ms ish lock from Quiet-Eye theory (for those into that highly relevant element of sports psychology) just as I transition into forward stroke delivery and a smooth natural visual lock to track the OB from the moment it’s struck through to its impact destination.
I’m not advocating OB last, or disputing that CB last isn’t better for some folks. I’m simply highlighting that its a pretty complex topic, with tradeoffs and many personal variables involved.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers
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I’m a CB-last guy,I’m a CB-last guy, but I’ve played around with OB-last a bit. Like anything new/different, I find it awkward, but I did glean some perspectives (pun intended) from trying it over a few long solo sessions.
By the way, just to clarify, when down on the balls I spend a large majority of my visual time & energy focused on the CB (like maybe 75%). I simply transition my eyes one last time to the OB and lock on it as I deliver the final stroke. This provides a perfect 300 ms ish lock from Quiet-Eye theory just as I transition into forward stroke delivery and a smooth natural visual lock to track the OB from the moment it’s struck to its impact destination.
I’m not advocating OB last, or disputing that CB last isn’t better for some folks. I’m simply highlighting that it seems a complex topic, with tradeoffs and many personal variables involved.
Cheers
. I simply transition my eyes one last time to the OB and lock on it as I deliver the final stroke
how can those 2 statements be true?
if you " transition my eyes one last time to the OB and lock on it as I deliver the final stroke "
you are not looking at the cue ball last are you ???
icbw
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Do you have a Digest Ed version of this post? I'm old and cantankerous
phreaticus
Well-known member
phreaticus
Well-known member
All the time & verbage you have into this thread, and you can’t/won’t take the time to read & digest a thoughtful response on the topic? You may be old & cantankerous, but you sort of sound like a TicToc teen ager. If you can’t get anything from my note, then just ignore. CheersDo you have a Digest Ed version of this post? I'm old and cantankerous
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