(FAQ) How do you make accurate 1 cushion kicks?

To me, the best method is the Diamond System ......it's such easy math too.......and the long rail math is really simple......There's no mapping for intersecting points or imaginary ball position or reflection imagery......simple math which is foolproof as long as you stroke the cue ball with normal roll and contact the rail at the resultant value that you get by doing the math.......it really does work folks.....you will actually pocket one rail kicks or at least hit the object ball when you do miss..........Remember To Stroke With Normal Roll &No English!

Matt B.
 
realkingcobra said:
It's funny that everyone keeps beating the drums to the same beat, but no one can think of how to explain to everyone....how to play GOOD pool, in less than perfect conditions....like, how do you adjust when the table don't act the way the diagrams on how to bank balls...DON'T WORK!;)
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All systems provide baseline measurements. You still have to know the equipment you are on and the conditions and adapt. Still I find that the double the distance method/mirror system works pretty universally on all decently playing tables.

Pretty easy to figure out if a table is playing long, short, or just right.
 
Poolmanis said:
Hi.
I thought id´d add something because kicking is my area of excellence at pool. I post to Youtube mostly races against ghost and 14.1 runs so there is only little kicking there.

I made video earlier about 1 rail kicks(also 2 rail and about 3 rail opposite system too).
I also have video where i "drill" kicks so one can see how accurate that is.
That said, I´m not happy about video(and sound) quality. I gonna either make new audio and cut original little or make whole thing again and make audio afterwards so I can put better quality.
I´d also would do these videos better rails(I can do better accuracy and better cushions give also more margin of error to spin) because these tables are 25 years old and they have cushions replaced couple of times and they are not good ones.
They play quite short.

System I use is reference. Master particular kicks and expand from there. My 1 rail system basic uses fast speed and centerball because it is really close at any table. Of course there is more but i don´t wanna write all here.

If someone is interested here is links:

drilling kicks: first i do my base lines. then about 6:40 i try clear table full of balls randomly to one pocket... in the end i put some 2 railers too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTiFGkDoGK8

Reference kicking: Where is try teach this shit ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4Q5debhFk

The thing about reference kicking is that´s simple to use even under pressure and lack of time. So it will work at tournaments too(with shotclock even).
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I find it interesting the speed you use to get the angle. At those speeds it seems to me the angle would shorten a bit, but surprise it worked.

On the shot from corner to corner are you using more speed or a little draw? I'm assuming all bisecting shots are with no spin.
 
3kushn said:
I find it interesting the speed you use to get the angle. At those speeds it seems to me the angle would shorten a bit, but surprise it worked.
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It worked because he aimed long (at least on the first few shots I watched).

Here's a link to Dr. Dave's "resource page" that describes how to aim high-speed kicks/banks by aiming 1/3 diamond longer than the equal-angle point on the rail: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#fast

pj
chgo

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3kushn said:
I find it interesting the speed you use to get the angle. At those speeds it seems to me the angle would shorten a bit, but surprise it worked.

On the shot from corner to corner are you using more speed or a little draw? I'm assuming all bisecting shots are with no spin.
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Good table little less speed is optimal. Those tables when i did video em had almost 1 year old cloths. It made shooting harder because cueball should be sliding or just between slide and stun trough*edit when it hit on rail*. Rail should compress almost max but not quite.
Yeah its either one. Little draw normally because I aim it too long for make sure it won´t take funny bounce from side pocket liner. Near pockets rails get un-consistent.
When I was young i research all systems and tricks i could and tried em all.
This one rail with speed is actually variation from 3 cushion billiards system. Can´t remember where i picked it up.
Best part about this system is that it works almost identical any decent table. Maybe little bit speed off some tables or if table plays really sick short then using stun trough.

Actually i fooled around with kicking two nights ago. There was some businessman from London visiting our poolroom. We played some english pool. He told me rules and I ran first two racks then I promised kick black in rest of games. I made black from everywhere 4 games. 4 times at row.. first try :D
You should see his face .. I used fast speed 3 of those and one was roller because black was on end rail.
 
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Poolmanis said:
Good table little less speed is optimal. Those tables when i did video em had almost 1 year old cloths. It made shooting harder because cueball should be sliding or just between slide and stun trough*edit when it hit on rail*. Rail should compress almost max but not quite.
Yeah its either one. Little draw normally because I aim it too long for make sure it won´t take funny bounce from side pocket liner. Near pockets rails get un-consistent.
When I was young i research all systems and tricks i could and tried em all.
This one rail with speed is actually variation from 3 cushion billiards system. Can´t remember where i picked it up.
Best part about this system is that it works almost identical any decent table. Maybe little bit speed off some tables or if table plays really sick short then using stun trough.

Actually i fooled around with kicking two nights ago. There was some businessman from London visiting our poolroom. We played some english pool. He told me rules and I ran first two racks then I promised kick black in rest of games. I made black from everywhere 4 games. 4 times at row.. first try :D
You should see his face .. I used fast speed 3 of those and one was roller because black was on end rail.
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Thanks for the clarification. I don't play much on pocket tables and therefore have never noticed differences in rebound angles near the pocket. Interesting.

You made my day. I learned something new. Actually 2 things. There's pool players that expect, want, and work with Slide. Is that Rude? The Pro's I know are in this camp. They have to be.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It worked because he aimed long (at least on the first few shots I watched).

Here's a link to Dr. Dave's "resource page" that describes how to aim high-speed kicks/banks by aiming 1/3 diamond longer than the equal-angle point on the rail: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#fast

pj
chgo

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I guess I was assuming rather than watching, and made an ass of myself. At those speeds the system is still in play with your stop action photo being proof. 1/2 diamond is what I was thinking (maybe equates to 1/3 contact on the nose) and you verified it but didn't see it.

Thanks

Appreciated his response very much.
 
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JB Cases said:
All systems provide baseline measurements. You still have to know the equipment you are on and the conditions and adapt.
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This is true.
You can do all the math you want all day long. It's not going to help one bit if one rail happens to be short or long, and throws all your calculations into the toilet.
Short or dead rail can be the difference between hitting the ball squarely, or missing by 2 balls.

It's one thing to be on brand new equipment.
It's another proposition altogether when you are on older equipment that has some wear and tear on it.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
You can do all the math you want all day long. It's not going to help one bit if one rail happens to be short or long, and throws all your calculations into the toilet.
Short or dead rail can be the difference between hitting the ball squarely, or missing by 2 balls.

It's one thing to be on brand new equipment.
It's another proposition altogether when you are on older equipment that has some wear and tear on it.
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Even if you play entirely by feel you've built up a library of known angles that work for you on your favorite table, say, and you adjust from there for different conditions. That's no different from a system - just some known angles to use as a baseline for comparison. Your baseline doesn't become irrelevant when conditions change; that's when it's needed.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Your baseline doesn't become irrelevant when conditions change; that's when it's needed.

pj
chgo
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That is correct. If you don't have a baseline, you don't have a standard to compare to. You have to know the standard "recipe" before you start adding or taking away things to make the soup to your flavor.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Even if you play entirely by feel you've built up a library of known angles that work for you on your favorite table, say, and you adjust from there for different conditions. That's no different from a system - just some known angles to use as a baseline for comparison. Your baseline doesn't become irrelevant when conditions change; that's when it's needed.

pj
chgo
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I wasn't disagreeing with JB.
I'm not disagreeing with you.

I was just bringing up real life situations where you don't have time to learn the equipment before hand, or are changing tables every match like when you are someplace new or in a tournament at a pool room, where each table has it's quirks.
One bum rail can kill you on kicks and lots of times, you don't have time to recover because the missed kick gave the opponent the upper hand.

But everyone needs their baseline and reference shots to determine how the table plays.
That's the whole point.

Except for a really dead rail.
You could fire the cueball at a dead rail and still not have a clue where it is going after 10 tries or so unless you hit it at warp speed. LOL
 
SUPERSTAR said:
I wasn't disagreeing with JB.
I'm not disagreeing with you.

I was just bringing up real life situations where you don't have time to learn the equipment before hand, or are changing tables every match like when you are someplace new or in a tournament at a pool room, where each table has it's quirks.
One bum rail can kill you on kicks and lots of times, you don't have time to recover because the missed kick gave the opponent the upper hand.

But everyone needs their baseline and reference shots to determine how the table plays.
That's the whole point.

Except for a really dead rail.
You could fire the cueball at a dead rail and still not have a clue where it is going after 10 tries or so unless you hit it at warp speed. LOL
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The rail not bonded to the table.
The ball doesn't even reach the pocket.
Thud.:smile:
 
SUPERSTAR said:
This is true.
You can do all the math you want all day long. It's not going to help one bit if one rail happens to be short or long, and throws all your calculations into the toilet.
Short or dead rail can be the difference between hitting the ball squarely, or missing by 2 balls.

It's one thing to be on brand new equipment.
It's another proposition altogether when you are on older equipment that has some wear and tear on it.
Click to expand...

Or Diamond rails...:grin:

I almost always see the kick mirrored... if you can envision the 'mirrored' OB, you can hit either side... on long angles it's diamonds. Grady had a system for 'adding half' a diamond, and kicking with low english to stop whitey... I'll have to dig that one up.. this allows you to kick with speed.
 
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