Fargo Delete

[Shooter08]

If a player does not want a rating should they be able to play without ranking? If so, is it most fair if they have the same rating as best in field? Fargo rating does give some match ups a bad deal in a head to head game. Why should you have to give up your speed, just because you play tournaments? Strength of player varies by area and scenario! If a player wants no Fargo history, they should be allowed to play without ranking being established!

 

[BmoreMoney]

If a player does not want a rating should they be able to play without ranking? If so, is it most fair if they have the same rating as best in field? Fargo rating does give some match ups a bad deal, why should you have to give it up anyways?

Not sure what the rating " should be " but this was my initial reactions and one of my first thoughts / questions when first hearing about Fargo. I whole - heartedly believe that if one does not want to participate in the " Fargo Ratings " they should not be forced to and actually in fact it should require a consent or release from each individual person / player. I should mention that in absolutely no way does Fargo effect me, for me it's totally a matter of principle.

 

[Shooter08]

I don't play to this level, but have heard from some strong players, It is a detriment to them playing in local tourneys.

 

[rhatten]

Yes.. I agree with the 'opt out' option. Its hard enough to eat as it is in pool... Some days are worst than others, especially if you've been 'overrated' (by playing a series of weaker players) prior to "the one that matters". Rating system are all difficult to manage accurately... players lives- skill set change (even between matches/... and games at times - just fell dead). rating systems are not a panacea by any stretch.

R

 

[Wedge]

Paranoid

Waaaaah Waaaaah

 

[BmoreMoney]

Waaaaah Waaaaah

I can only speak for myself, and no - definitely not the case. My thing is this and I think this would apply to many others too - I don't do leagues , and I RARELY DO tourney ( last tournament that I can even remember playing in had to have been 6, 7, 8 years ago???? Who the hell knows - I know I sure don't but you get the point. What I'm getting at; and I am certain that if you gamble Wedge - which u am certain also that you do, is this: it's already a complete PITA trying to match up with someone as you very well know. I can totally see this happening - " oh OK you wanna play some, sure! Look I know you played Jim Bob and Jim Bob is a 629.5 in Fargo, and I KNOW Jim Bob played Billy Bob and He's DEFINITELY A 457.27, ANDR HillBilly Jim played Jim Bob and he got the call six, free 8, 2 games on the wire to 100 and first break. Thing is Hillbilly Jim played the Honky Tonk Man last week who is a 974 and he won by a game but then again The Honky Tonk Man gave Mr EEEENT-URRRRRNT WHO WAS A 773 the call 7 and 4 and a half games going to 11.5 and they broke even --- see what I'm saying? I definitely need the seven and a half ball . ..........

Anyway Wedge, my fear is that it's gonna make matching up that much more difficult - which I am VERY confident that NO ONE WANTS cause it's already difficult enough without adding yet another level of BS that needs to be dealt with. So not very sure where the paranoia thing comes into play, at least not on my end. I just think it's gonna ultimately " mess up " the action component ( which as it turns out is the ONLY thing that I actually give a sheet about anyhow lol )

 

[JB Cases]

I say no. If the tournament or event is public then the results are also public and have been used to rate player speeds anyway.

Any player can opt-out of playing in tournaments to hide their speed. Fargo only takes publicly reported data and runs it through their formula.

Same as any TD does when assigning handicaps only way less mathematically.

I don't see any ethical reason to need to be kept out of the ratings. Nor do I see any practical way that it's possible since a payer opting out has a literal butterfly effect on the rest of the players who are in.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't play to this level, but have heard from some strong players, It is a detriment to them playing in local tourneys.

As is any rating. Depending on robbing tournaments isn't a great way to make a living anyway. Here in OKC we had a 9 and under $200 entry event where first paid out like 5k - guys from another state managed to get in and flat robbed the event taking the majority of the money back with them.

Fargo Ratings eliminate the subjective assessment that TDs are always having to make when deciding to let a player in or not. BUT a TD can always decide to override FargoRating if he thinks a player is actually better or worse than their rating shows.

We have a local C/B payer whose rating was in the 700 range. 700 is strong A speed.

Turns out a tournament that he won was entered twice effectively giving him double the points.

 

[BmoreMoney]

I say no. If the tournament or event is public then the results are also public and have been used to rate player speeds anyway.

Any player can opt-out of playing in tournaments to hide their speed. Fargo only takes publicly reported data and runs it through their formula.

Same as any TD does when assigning handicaps only way less mathematically.

I don't see any ethical reason to need to be kept out of the ratings. Nor do I see any practical way that it's possible since a payer opting out has a literal butterfly effect on the rest of the players who are in.

John, I agree with what you're saying in essence. However; think about what we are actually talking about here - speed, and ultimately that effects ones chance to make money ( via matching up ). So while what you're saying is actually true - think about it in these terms : We all know there are tons of things that can be found out about someone with just a few keystrokes if you know how / where to look. Some very private info can be obtained with a computer, a lot of stuff most would want to keep private can be found out and one could argue it's " public information " This is an extreme example but when put into the context such as someone's speed the correlation between the two becomes a whole lot more similar.

For you John, this really wouldn't be a concern as you have been about as open and public with you're game as one could be and I TRULY commend you for that along with the heart you showed with the whole Lou thing. And to be honest none of this stuff really effects me much either one way or the other, it's only a principle type thing, as I realize while the days of a " road agent " is long gone, there are still plenty of people where the difference between giving the call 7 or the free 6 certainly could be the difference between having dinner and a cheap hotel room or having a Snickers bar and sleeping in the car. Do you kinda get what I'm saying???

 

[AF pool guy]

JB has it right, if you want to opt out you don't play those tournaments. I will concede that the tournament should be up front that the results will be submitted to the Fargo Rate guys. It's the 21st century, you only got one chance to be anonymous, make it count if that's your thing.


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[JB Cases]

John, I agree with what you're saying in essence. However; think about what we are actually talking about here - speed, and ultimately that effects ones chance to make money ( via matching up ). So while what you're saying is actually true - think about it in these terms : We all know there are tons of things that can be found out about someone with just a few keystrokes if you know how / where to look. Some very private info can be obtained with a computer, a lot of stuff most would want to keep private can be found out and one could argue it's " public information " This is an extreme example but when put into the context such as someone's speed the correlation between the two becomes a whole lot more similar.

For you John, this really wouldn't be a concern as you have been about as open and public with you're game as one could be and I TRULY commend you for that along with the heart you showed with the whole Lou thing. And to be honest none of this stuff really effects me much either one way or the other, it's only a principle type thing, as I realize while the days of a " road agent " is long gone, there are still plenty of people where the difference between giving the call 7 or the free 6 certainly could be the difference between having dinner and a cheap hotel room or having a Snickers bar and sleeping in the car. Do you kinda get what I'm saying???

I absolutely get it. My point is that players who want to stay under the radar don't play in a lot of tournaments anyway.

I can see where Fargo could make it way easier to clock someone's speed. But we all know that the guy who does due diligence is going to be able to find out the 411 pretty easily anyway and the guy who doesn't do it isn't going to care much.

Consider this scenario, players still like to use fake names.....what if they compile a list of players with low fargo ratings where no pictures exist on the net? Stranger rolls into town and wants to gamble and is asked what his FR is and he says 482 and they look up his "name" and sure enough it's 482. In reality he is a 765.

So there is one way that someone could use FR to hustle.

 

[BmoreMoney]

I absolutely get it. My point is that players who want to stay under the radar don't play in a lot of tournaments anyway.

I can see where Fargo could make it way easier to clock someone's speed. But we all know that the guy who does due diligence is going to be able to find out the 411 pretty easily anyway and the guy who doesn't do it isn't going to care much.

Consider this scenario, players still like to use fake names.....what if they compile a list of players with low fargo ratings where no pictures exist on the net? Stranger rolls into town and wants to gamble and is asked what his FR is and he says 482 and they look up his "name" and sure enough it's 482. In reality he is a 765.

So there is one way that someone could use FR to hustle.

No, I wasn't even thinking about trying to use Fargo to hustle in any way. I guess what I'm really getting at is while what you initially said is true as far as if someone put the time in to clock someone ( anyone for that matter ) I just do not care for the fact that there is not an " opt out " chance and all who decide to play in ( whatever ) tournament is forced to participate in the Fargo ratings system. It kinda reminds me of the " progressive Snap Shot " that you plug into your cars OBD System - and that being mandatory as opposed to being an option to receive discounts on your car insurance. I; like many others, like options and don't care to be forced to do things.

 

[JB Cases]

No, I wasn't even thinking about trying to use Fargo to hustle in any way. I guess what I'm really getting at is while what you initially said is true as far as if someone put the time in to clock someone ( anyone for that matter ) I just do not care for the fact that there is not an " opt out " chance and all who decide to play in ( whatever ) tournament is forced to participate in the Fargo ratings system. It kinda reminds me of the " progressive Snap Shot " that you plug into your cars OBD System - and that being mandatory as opposed to being an option to receive discounts on your car insurance. I; like many others, like options and don't care to be forced to do things.

Since the only way FargoRatings can work is by everyone being connected to everyone else if people start opting out then it skews the ratings across the board.

I don't know if any one remembers this but years ago Mike Howerton was asked to post a picture of the tournament winners and one of them, Gary Abood, had put a ski mask on to avoid his face from being shown. Mike was kind of pissed at that as he felt that playing in a public tournament means that you accept the public exposure when you win.

I do think that we will start to see a lot of tournaments that advertise specifically that they don't report to Fargo and don't use FR. I already see that happening in OKC.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Since the only way FargoRatings can work is by everyone being connected to everyone else if people start opting out then it skews the ratings across the board.

I don't know if any one remembers this but years ago Mike Howerton was asked to post a picture of the tournament winners and one of them, Gary Abood, had put a ski mask on to avoid his face from being shown. Mike was kind of pissed at that as he felt that playing in a public tournament means that you accept the public exposure when you win.

I do think that we will start to see a lot of tournaments that advertise specifically that they don't report to Fargo and don't use FR. I already see that happening in OKC.

Yeah I do remember that and that is a great example actually. Gary came around our way ( Dundalk, MD ) I think it was around '11 or so and emptiEd out everyone over the course of a few weeks. Everyone knew he played REAL GOOD. But the question would have been - well HOW GOOD???? He matched up with people and gave weight. He broke just about everyone. Now, if Fargo had been around and up and running to its full extent that probably would not have happened. Ie, so one guy; my buddy and a fellow AZ'er, played him 10-8 I think and lost about $5 G's or so. Was 10- 8 a fair game? Probably not. So if Fargo had been in place and Gary had a rating and my buddy had a rating he would have seen - " OH, I need 9-7 ( or whatever ) and he action may not have ever happened OR the outcome may have been TOTALLY DIFFERENT. See, even though my one buddy, and a bunch of other buddies lost a good bit of money I'm still arguing this in principal. While I can not speak for anyone else, I am very confident that most of these people I speak of don't care for this system either. Reason being : while they got busted out this particular time there have been PLENTY of times where they busted out plenty of other people. I just kinda feel like it's gonna kill action often times, and God knows we don't need to lose anymore good action than we already have!

 

[billiardthought]

If someone uses their own effort to create a rating for you, and someone else uses their own effort to use that rating to handicap you in a tournament - you're SOL. Don't give that tournament your business if you dont want them using a rating of you that you disagree with.

In other news - I think someone took my picture last year and I am still hunting them down trying to get them to delete the photo of me.

 

[cueenvy]

If a strong regional player is in 3 or 4 big events yearly and does well the rating is going to be artificially high due to small sample size. Statistical analysis doesn't adequately capture a person's peak ability anyway. I really think that for pool the whole thing is bunk. As Mark Twain would say, "There are lies, dammed lies and statistics".

 

[JB Cases]

If a strong regional player is in 3 or 4 big events yearly and does well the rating is going to be artificially high due to small sample size. Statistical analysis doesn't adequately capture a person's peak ability anyway. I really think that for pool the whole thing is bunk. As Mark Twain would say, "There are lies, dammed lies and statistics".

This has been covered but the sample size that Mike says gives an accurate rating is 200 games.

So if a person does well in big tournaments which report to fargo and that compromises 200+ games then that's the speed he plays.

It's not bunk. Maybe not 100% perfect but real world tested against enough results to give probably the best numerical indicator of speed that we have.

 

[jojopiff]

What I find most astounding is how many people want to know and think they have a right to know how good everyone plays.

If you're entering a handicapped tournament then fine, aside from that, don't see how it ever should ever matter.

 

[BmoreMoney]

what i find most astounding is how many people want to know and think they have a right to know how good everyone plays.

If you're entering a handicapped tournament then fine, aside from that, don't see how it ever should ever matter.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[billiardthought]

What I find most astounding is how many people want to know and think they have a right to know how good everyone plays.

If you're entering a handicapped tournament then fine, aside from that, don't see how it ever should ever matter.

I don't have 'the right' to know your or anyone else's speed. But someone other than me has compiled a resource that gives me your ranking relative to others. I don't have 'the right' to access this information, someone else has given me the privilege to see what they think your ranking is. Why would I not use this free resource, no matter how inaccurate you might argue it is, that is a better piece of information than what I can come up with on my own in the same amount of time?