Fargo Rate Question

MarknTorrance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I run a BCA league. This year I had to give a fargo rates to new players. I wasn't happy about this but was told to use comparable to other players so that
is what i did. One player hadn't played* since fargo started so he had no number. I used comparable and started him at 545. My league was 12 weeks long and he had a strong season. After he entered the tournament CSI bumped him up to 618. This would make him the 2nd strongest player in my league and more then likely bump him from gold to platinum. He is a good player but I feel this rating is very unfair. Tried to deal with CSI and get no where. I was curious if anyone knows who the top dog at CSI is and to here some thoughts on the subject.

Mark
 

sixpack

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I run a BCA league. This year I had to give a fargo rates to new players. I wasn't happy about this but was told to use comparable to other players so that
is what i did. One player hadn't played* since fargo started so he had no number. I used comparable and started him at 545. My league was 12 weeks long and he had a strong season. After he entered the tournament CSI bumped him up to 618. This would make him the 2nd strongest player in my league and more then likely bump him from gold to platinum. He is a good player but I feel this rating is very unfair. Tried to deal with CSI and get no where. I was curious if anyone knows who the top dog at CSI is and to here some thoughts on the subject.

Mark

My first thought is that he possibly plays better than you think he does.

My second thought is that the great thing about Fargo is it will work itself out. If he has been playing over his head it will be corrected sooner rather than later.

Leagues are funny when it comes to Fargo rating. I play in a non handicapped league where I tied for top shooter with a guy rated almost 100 points higher than I am. We played pretty much all the same players and I played them the same as he did. He beat me head-to-head but just barely.

I know the system should shake out in the end but there seems to be some variability.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My thoughts have less to do with CSI and more to do with your end of the story. You say he was bumped up "after" a tournament. I assume this after he entered (played?) in said tournament and not just signed up and was told your now a 600+? If so do you know the speed of the players he played? I could see how at a glance someone would look to be 545 and catch gear in a tournament and look/be way better. The story reads that your initial concern was warranted, and Fargo straightened it out.
 

Joe Pickens

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first thought is that he possibly plays better than you think he does.

My second thought is that the great thing about Fargo is it will work itself out. If he has been playing over his head it will be corrected sooner rather than later.

Leagues are funny when it comes to Fargo rating. I play in a non handicapped league where I tied for top shooter with a guy rated almost 100 points higher than I am. We played pretty much all the same players and I played them the same as he did. He beat me head-to-head but just barely.

I know the system should shake out in the end but there seems to be some variability.

My understanding about Fargo is that it doesn't matter if he just barely beat you. The system goes strictly by wins and losses. So, even if he did just barely beat you all the system sees is that he beat you.
 

sixpack

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My understanding about Fargo is that it doesn't matter if he just barely beat you. The system goes strictly by wins and losses. So, even if he did just barely beat you all the system sees is that he beat you.

Yep. But the other xxx matches we played during the season we had the same record against the same players and he’s rated a 647 and I’m about 550.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My understanding about Fargo is that it doesn't matter if he just barely beat you. The system goes strictly by wins and losses. So, even if he did just barely beat you all the system sees is that he beat you.
No. Fargo counts each rack. 11-0 is very different from 11-10.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't like LOs getting involved with "adjusting" Fargo ratings or starting a player where they "think" they should be unless said player is known state ranked / master player. Otherwise start them at 525 and have at it. The only problem I have seen with using FargoRate is that some leagues report to it and some (many) don't. Some players (I am one) benefit from this. Some do not. In the end, I think it is the best rating system I have seen and will work out once more leagues start reporting to it.
 

Joe Pickens

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of each rack, not match wins and losses. He has talked about this extensively before here.

Exactly, you can't win a game 11-10 based on a ten point system. The winner of the game gets 10 points and the loser receives a point for each ball made. So it doesn't matter if you win 10-0 or 10-7 since it depends on who wins the game.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Exactly, you can't win a game 11-10 based on a ten point system. The winner of the game gets 10 points and the loser receives a point for each ball made. So it doesn't matter if you win 10-0 or 10-7 since it depends on who wins the game.
Sorry, I didn't understand that you were talking about point-system eight ball.
 

Joe Pickens

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry, I didn't understand that you were talking about point-system eight ball.

Oh, anyway I finally figured out that we were both saying the same thing it was just that we were both looking at a different format. If it was a race to 11 then yes there is a big difference between winning 11-10 as compared to 11-0. When he said in league I just assumed that he was talking about ten-point 8 ball, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I think we were both on the same page and didn't know it. :thumbup:
 

sixpack

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Oh, anyway I finally figured out that we were both saying the same thing it was just that we were both looking at a different format. If it was a race to 11 then yes there is a big difference between winning 11-10 as compared to 11-0. When he said in league I just assumed that he was talking about ten-point 8 ball, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I think we were both on the same page and didn't know it. :thumbup:

Yep. 8-ball. One game.
 

JolietJames

Boot Party Coordinator
Silver Member
Keep in mind that a player's robustness has a lot to do with how quickly they move up or down in their ratings. Having only played four or five hundred games in the system I moved up thirty points after BCA State this year. A player with four thousand games likely would have moved much less.
 

JC

The Thread Stops Here
Gold Member
I don't like LOs getting involved with "adjusting" Fargo ratings or starting a player where they "think" they should be unless said player is known state ranked / master player. Otherwise start them at 525 and have at it. The only problem I have seen with using FargoRate is that some leagues report to it and some (many) don't. Some players (I am one) benefit from this. Some do not. In the end, I think it is the best rating system I have seen and will work out once more leagues start reporting to it.

The problem with just starting someone at 525 is they will take many weeks of league play to correct even if they are 100 points or more lower in actuality.

If you use fargorate to handicap your league matches it is grossly unfair to the team these players are on for pretty much an entire season.

We have almost all of our league players established now and are able to look at a player's game and make a pretty good estimate where to start them compared to our established players. 525 is actually pretty sporty in the league scheme of things and the vast majority of our new players are much weaker than that. What we do has worked well.

My guess is the OP just isn't that familiar with what the various level of play actually looks like in fargo number terms to come close to assigning a starting rating. This will work out with time.

If player plays considerably better than his 545 rating the people who jumped him up are probably more experience with fargo to make that call than the OP.

My .02

JC
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem with just starting someone at 525 is they will take many weeks of league play to correct even if they are 100 points or more lower in actuality.

If you use fargorate to handicap your league matches it is grossly unfair to the team these players are on for pretty much an entire season.

We have almost all of our league players established now and are able to look at a player's game and make a pretty good estimate where to start them compared to our established players. 525 is actually pretty sporty in the league scheme of things and the vast majority of our new players are much weaker than that. What we do has worked well.

My guess is the OP just isn't that familiar with what the various level of play actually looks like in fargo number terms to come close to assigning a starting rating. This will work out with time.

If player plays considerably better than his 545 rating the people who jumped him up are probably more experience with fargo to make that call than the OP.

My .02

JC

Don't play in a league that uses handicaps. I don't. Hate them. That's where you get sandbagging and people trying to win based on handicap manipulation rather than skill
 

MarknTorrance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess I havent explained myself well enough. I have know this player for 20 years. He got married hasnt played much the last 8 years. I know his top game. His top game is about 570 to 580 range. I gave him a 545 based on how he was currently playing. I stand by it 100 percent. I have run a bca league for 20 years. I think i am a pretty good judge. But i also asked the top players in my league for there thoughts. I have several players in the 600.

I dont handicap my league. I run it once a year for 12 weeks just to get everyone qualified. Its kind of like a reunion. LOL No one takes it that seriouly. After my league was over and after this player signed up for singles someone at CSI raised his starting fargo that I gave him to 600. Based on 12 weeks of player he went to 618.

He wasnt the top shooter in the league. He didnt have the best wining percentage. I talked to CSI they have nothing but my league stats as to why they bumped him. They have never seen him play. I think this sets a bad precedent that they can do this based on so little information.

They also told me that if they had no info they would have started him at 625. Correct me if i am wrong i thought 525 was the starter?

MarknTorrance
 

Joe Pickens

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess I havent explained myself well enough. I have know this player for 20 years. He got married hasnt played much the last 8 years. I know his top game. His top game is about 570 to 580 range. I gave him a 545 based on how he was currently playing. I stand by it 100 percent. I have run a bca league for 20 years. I think i am a pretty good judge. But i also asked the top players in my league for there thoughts. I have several players in the 600.

I dont handicap my league. I run it once a year for 12 weeks just to get everyone qualified. Its kind of like a reunion. LOL No one takes it that seriouly. After my league was over and after this player signed up for singles someone at CSI raised his starting fargo that I gave him to 600. Based on 12 weeks of player he went to 618.

He wasnt the top shooter in the league. He didnt have the best wining percentage. I talked to CSI they have nothing but my league stats as to why they bumped him. They have never seen him play. I think this sets a bad precedent that they can do this based on so little information.

They also told me that if they had no info they would have started him at 625. Correct me if i am wrong i thought 525 was the starter?

MarknTorrance

I agree with you. I also thought 525 was the starting Fargo rate.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess I havent explained myself well enough. I have know this player for 20 years. He got married hasnt played much the last 8 years. I know his top game. His top game is about 570 to 580 range. I gave him a 545 based on how he was currently playing. I stand by it 100 percent. I have run a bca league for 20 years. I think i am a pretty good judge. But i also asked the top players in my league for there thoughts. I have several players in the 600.

I dont handicap my league. I run it once a year for 12 weeks just to get everyone qualified. Its kind of like a reunion. LOL No one takes it that seriouly. After my league was over and after this player signed up for singles someone at CSI raised his starting fargo that I gave him to 600. Based on 12 weeks of player he went to 618.

He wasnt the top shooter in the league. He didnt have the best wining percentage. I talked to CSI they have nothing but my league stats as to why they bumped him. They have never seen him play. I think this sets a bad precedent that they can do this based on so little information.

They also told me that if they had no info they would have started him at 625. Correct me if i am wrong i thought 525 was the starter?

MarknTorrance
You said he wasn’t the top shooter in league, and that in the league there are several players in the 600s, so he’d be below them. And he went UP from 600 due to his play, so obviously your 545 was too low. It sounds like he’s about in the right spot.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess I havent explained myself well enough. I have know this player for 20 years. He got married hasnt played much the last 8 years. I know his top game. His top game is about 570 to 580 range. I gave him a 545 based on how he was currently playing. I stand by it 100 percent. I have run a bca league for 20 years. I think i am a pretty good judge. But i also asked the top players in my league for there thoughts. I have several players in the 600.

I dont handicap my league. I run it once a year for 12 weeks just to get everyone qualified. Its kind of like a reunion. LOL No one takes it that seriouly. After my league was over and after this player signed up for singles someone at CSI raised his starting fargo that I gave him to 600. Based on 12 weeks of player he went to 618.

He wasnt the top shooter in the league. He didnt have the best wining percentage. I talked to CSI they have nothing but my league stats as to why they bumped him. They have never seen him play. I think this sets a bad precedent that they can do this based on so little information.

They also told me that if they had no info they would have started him at 625. Correct me if i am wrong i thought 525 was the starter?

MarknTorrance

A true Fargo problem starts when he starts getting crushed because of an errant rating.This does not seem to be the case here. Nothing seems unusual. Were talking about a 38 point difference from his "previous" top game to CSI's rating.
 
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