Right, the comparison shouldn't be to perfect knowledge of everyone's level, it should be to what would happen otherwise.
FARGO Ratings
- Thread starter bwally
- Start date
Right, the comparison shouldn't be to perfect knowledge of everyone's level, it should be to what would happen otherwise.
From my earlier post:
My experience has shown me that the biggest negative effect that outliers have is that they lead (and are already leading in this case) to a general distrust of the formula by pool players who aren't familiar with the law of big numbers; which is to say 99% of them.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5443139&postcount=108
Yes, I did read your earlier post.
Your league doesn't use ratings. Are the players suddenly going to care about how they rate against people they have never met, never played with, and don't know their skill levels?
Are they going to get upset about being rated a 450 rather than a 550, when they don't know what it means?
In short, what is some upset pool player going to say?
Thank you kindly.
Nothing's going to change in my league. We send teams every year and will continue to do so, regardless of the ratings. However, we're close enough to drive to Vegas and, as a whole, aren't as concerned with making the financials work to make the trip.
I'm going to bet that other leagues won't be nearly as willing to make the trip given their misunderstanding or mistrust of the rating. Outliers born of a relative lack of data is only going to feed these feelings.
Here, I'll spell it out for you:
Less data = more outliers = more distrust = lower attendance
You're very welcome.
Mistrust and not enough data without even experiencing it?
I would say their is more mistrust without it. Let me ask you a simple question. Explain the difference between a Master and a Grand Master or between an A and a B?
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Yelvis,
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are ignoring what everyone has been doing in the past - which has not be very accurate. FargoRate will be far superior to what has been used by every league everywhere. Waiting an additional year was not an option because of costs, perpetuating a broken system when a better solution is available - and no matter when we pulled the plug, there will be lots of questions. And more data gets better results and by starting this year, we jump start everything.
I really hope that most players should have a degree of trust and faith in what we are trying to do at CSI. We have always placed the game above our personal interests. And this is another example of us willing to take a hit to produce a better product for all of pool. This is a massive project. What we really need is everyone to cooperate, and patience while we get everything up for prime time.
I don't think there is any other entity that is willing to put in the time, money and effort to make this happen. We cannot respond to every question placed on AZ Billiards. We will have more podcast coming soon. Things are changing daily - trust that it will be a lot of the same great tournament that we have every year - with many obvious, and not so obvious improvements.
I understand there is come confusion - but we are addressing issues as fast as we can. You will get a better answer if you email us. We cannot get into constant debates on AZ Billiards. As time goes on, things will get much more clear. We are trying to do the very best - and I firmly believe most will understand and appreciate the end results.
Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com
702-835-2000 cell (leave message)
(I have been having health issues so I have not been overly active-but I will respond to emails and phone calls as best I can) BTW - this is my 1 year anniversary of my double lung transplant. I am doing fantastic - the only hitch was a recent 3 week stay in hospital because of viral pneumonia. All better now!
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are ignoring what everyone has been doing in the past - which has not be very accurate. FargoRate will be far superior to what has been used by every league everywhere. Waiting an additional year was not an option because of costs, perpetuating a broken system when a better solution is available - and no matter when we pulled the plug, there will be lots of questions. And more data gets better results and by starting this year, we jump start everything.
I really hope that most players should have a degree of trust and faith in what we are trying to do at CSI. We have always placed the game above our personal interests. And this is another example of us willing to take a hit to produce a better product for all of pool. This is a massive project. What we really need is everyone to cooperate, and patience while we get everything up for prime time.
I don't think there is any other entity that is willing to put in the time, money and effort to make this happen. We cannot respond to every question placed on AZ Billiards. We will have more podcast coming soon. Things are changing daily - trust that it will be a lot of the same great tournament that we have every year - with many obvious, and not so obvious improvements.
I understand there is come confusion - but we are addressing issues as fast as we can. You will get a better answer if you email us. We cannot get into constant debates on AZ Billiards. As time goes on, things will get much more clear. We are trying to do the very best - and I firmly believe most will understand and appreciate the end results.
Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com
702-835-2000 cell (leave message)
(I have been having health issues so I have not been overly active-but I will respond to emails and phone calls as best I can) BTW - this is my 1 year anniversary of my double lung transplant. I am doing fantastic - the only hitch was a recent 3 week stay in hospital because of viral pneumonia. All better now!
Glad youre feeling better Mark!
This would seem to imply that you think the amount of data after fargo ratings are adopted will be less than they are now.
I am not sure where you get the impression.
Thank you kindly.
Fargo is very unusual
I'm not necessarily on board with this and that CSI is using it. However, the way I understand it is that one doesn't necessarily have to play to move up/down. If the players you've played have been playing then it could affect your rating. For example, if you beat a person who was a 600 and they've been beating players who are 700's then they're going to move up, henceforth, making your rating go up.
Again, this is my understanding. Especially as this is somewhat new and many players have a lower robustness and their ratings can more easily change.
Robustness is games you played. The rating can change without Robustness changing as the players you have played and the players they have played,etc. are playing games
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Yes, My understanding is that they do a re-calibration of EVERYONE'S rating once a day. It is conceivable that every rating could change overnight with only one new data point.
Let's assume there is a person whose rating is drastically low for their skill level, has a low robustness, and their interconnectedness is high. If they beat a high rated player, their rating is likely to rise considerably. Which would cause everyone they have played to have their rating go up, and everyone they have played... Then all the ratings need to be re-normalized to compensate for all the points that just entered the system, so all ratings go down a tiny bit.
Thank you kindly.
Great then we can conclude from your lemma:
and your claim that amount of data won't go down, that:
More data = less outliers = less distrust = higher attendance.
So that's a win.
Thank you kindly.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you like it or not. Because the important thing is that you're not going to stop playing pool because of the rating system. You never stopped before and you won't stop now.
If this is adopted nationwide with everyone reporting scores then it can ONLY lead to more ACCURATE data that can be used to do better than the local opinion based ratings. I am an 8 in okc based on one guy's list. But if I got to some places they rate me a 7 or a 9 etc...
It's actually nice to see a rating for myself that seems to correlate pretty good with players I know from around the country that I have played against over the years. The guys in colorado that were always a ball or so better than me have about the same Fargo ratings as the guys in Oklahoma who are about a ball or so better than me. So I feel confident that where ever I go in the USA, or even around the world, that uses Fargo Ratings I can be fairly placed as to my skill level, I can fairly match up without a bunch of drama and hustling, and I don't need to worry about hustlers coming in to rob tournaments.
At the end of the day though it will simply be the same thing as before fargo ratings, you have a rating and that's it, you play where you can and enjoy the game. You might still whine about the ratings but you did that before as well. Point being that later you will simply say I am a 602 instead of saying I am an A or I am a 9 or I am a 9A+ - and when you say 602 you will know that you play about even with every other 600 speed player ON EARTH.
Which brings up another cool point.
Finally we will have some hard data on how many serious players there are and how many in each skill level there are. For companies like mine that data is important and for companies outside pool it might be important to have real numbers to use when determining if and how much to sponsor pool.
If this is adopted nationwide with everyone reporting scores then it can ONLY lead to more ACCURATE data that can be used to do better than the local opinion based ratings. I am an 8 in okc based on one guy's list. But if I got to some places they rate me a 7 or a 9 etc...
It's actually nice to see a rating for myself that seems to correlate pretty good with players I know from around the country that I have played against over the years. The guys in colorado that were always a ball or so better than me have about the same Fargo ratings as the guys in Oklahoma who are about a ball or so better than me. So I feel confident that where ever I go in the USA, or even around the world, that uses Fargo Ratings I can be fairly placed as to my skill level, I can fairly match up without a bunch of drama and hustling, and I don't need to worry about hustlers coming in to rob tournaments.
At the end of the day though it will simply be the same thing as before fargo ratings, you have a rating and that's it, you play where you can and enjoy the game. You might still whine about the ratings but you did that before as well. Point being that later you will simply say I am a 602 instead of saying I am an A or I am a 9 or I am a 9A+ - and when you say 602 you will know that you play about even with every other 600 speed player ON EARTH.
Which brings up another cool point.
Finally we will have some hard data on how many serious players there are and how many in each skill level there are. For companies like mine that data is important and for companies outside pool it might be important to have real numbers to use when determining if and how much to sponsor pool.