Fear of Feel

This is what I do. I make it easy and visual to lay down some markers that give you something to go by. The rest is holistic but now the information becomes more use able in a visual sense. My goal was to use the markers to enable feel control and it surely works for me.
I believe (in case you hadn't noticed) this is how systems work. The most obvious are the "fractional" ones with their fractional CB/OB alignments. Those are very handy "markers", and I think we can use them best when we know how we're doing it.

pj
chgo
 
I was actually raised Lutheran, but who's counting?

If reductionist means picking everything apart while playing, that's not me. In fact, I'm an advocate of simplifying your thinking about pool, even away from the table - it's just common sense stuff, not that complicated. I think aiming systems, especially the "pivoting" kind, way overcomplicate things (while, ironically, obscuring the simple facts that exist).

Et tu, Brute? :eek: Lol

I never once said that was what reductionism is about, nor did I mean to imply that you play like that. Hell, I've never even seen you play (but I am curious if you're close to as good as Lou is). Are there tapes, like I've seen of Lou's game?

You do have a strong tendency to go into great depth on the minuscule points of the game, though. After reading hundreds of your posts over the years, both here and on Dr. Dave's site, I'll stick with my initial assessment. I guess I would say that reductionism is like pornography. I know it when I see it. I think the Lutherans may have started it. :D

But you are probably a very fine feel player when the cash (or your honor) is on the line. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
 
No, not at all. Never said it was.

Again, you seem to miss the point. That's never been the argument, whether or not to use it, or whether it works for some people. It's the refusal to accept what the reductionists like Patrick Johnson (sorry, Pat, you're outed) have to say about the objectivity of the system that has been the source of 99% of the hostility here. But at least you don't fit into that way of thinking:




Does that sound familiar to you? It should. You wrote it back in 2010.


I can't see any possible way that someone can use a system that inherently leaves geometric gaps between it's alignment lines without using some sort of subconscious adjustment. Some call it "feel", (I didn't start that ball rolling), which is as good a form of shorthand as any AFAIC. Call it "visual intelligence". Cool. I'm fine with that. But I also use visual intelligence in my own aiming method - Real Ghostball. And not only does it align perfectly with the pockets of a table with a 2:1 ratio, it will align perfectly with any point on any table, and all the points inside the rails as well.

I can set up two balls on the rail just a smidgin more than a ball's width apart, and aim directly into the gap between them using Real Ghostball. And I do... often. Maybe you can do that with a pivot-based aiming system, but I never got that far with any of them because of all the derogatory remarks aimed at (using CTE perhaps?) folks using other aiming methods. It's just not worth wading through all the BS for me. Too bad, seems like a fine arrow to have in one's quiver.

You're confusing what I said and took it out of context. Feel is required in a lot of aspects of pool, since a HUGE % of shots are struck with side spin and with certain speeds required for position.

When it comes to: acquiring a visual, pivoting to center, and WHACKING a ball in with no english and without sweating position, it's all objective. The moment you have to spin the CB and throw position into the mix, there's definitely feel involved. But, that's not the discussion in this thread. If someone else doesn't agree, I'm sorry they feel that way.
 
I disagree. This place got boring in his absence. Pat is an excellent debater, and you really have to put on your thinking cap if you intend to joust with him. You better know your stuff, say what you mean, and mean what you say, or he will nail you. He is an huge asset to this board IMO. The only ones I've ever seen calling for his ouster have been the ardent supporters of pivot-based aiming systems. Even CJ seems to like having him onboard.

Not really. He's never nailed me in the history of AZB. In fact, PJ, WHERE'S MY (@#$*@(ING MONEY!!!!! What was it, $3k? I forget. Pay up, Mr. Air-barrel.
 
When it comes to: acquiring a visual, pivoting to center, and WHACKING a ball in with no english and without sweating position, it's all objective.
"Objective" in aiming means something we all can see and identify in the same way. What objective thing(s) should we look for to know when we've "acquired the visual"?

pj <- this all sounds so familiar...
chgo
 
Can u explain these "geometric gaps " ?

I'll refer you to Pat for that one. He's done it several times and has it all worked out. I don't have the time, I just looked at what he presented and it made perfect sense to me. Maybe somebody can provide a link?
 
Hi Patrick,

Just for discussion purposes, let us assume that 'feel' does not exist.

Let us also assume that there are only a number of 'aiming methods' that all utilize our ability to visually see 'markers' of some type for each method that indicates the cue stick alignment required to pocket balls on all the different angles to the pocket with only a vertical center line hit on the cue ball.

How many 'markers' would you calculate it would take to have a marker for each, every, & all of the shot angles that there are in the game of pool?

Also, if a system had that # of 'markers' would you agree that that system would then not require the 'feel' of utilizing any intuition or subjectively built subconscious data base from which to draw in order to just pocket the balls with all of those angles involved?

Would you agree that one would then just visually see a shot, visually recognize the angle of the shot & then utilize the associated visual 'marker' from that system for that particular shot angle?

Hence the need for what is 'defined' as 'feel' (intuition or the use of an individually built subjective subconscious data base) would not be needed to 'aim' with that type of system.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here in all of that is:

How many visual markers would it take in order to get the need for feel out of the realm of 'aiming' when playing the game of pool.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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A very funny thing just happened. I hardly ever use the DVD drive on my Mac because I get almost everything by download now. It's been months since I stuck a disc in there. Well, I'm sitting here at the computer sipping some coffee, and all of a sudden a disc comes popping out of the drive. Guess what it was?

Stan's "The Final Chapter", Disc 2. :thumbup:

How did he do that? Am I still allowed to watch it, or will my computer self-destruct if I push it back in?
 
Hi Patrick,

Just for discussion purposes, let us assume that 'feel' does not exist.

Let us also assume that there are only a number of 'aiming methods' that all utilize our ability to visually see 'markers' of some type for each method that indicates the cue stick alignment required to pocket balls on all the different angles to the pocket with only a vertical center line hit on the cue ball.

How many 'markers' would you calculate it would take to have a marker for each, every, & all of the shot angles that there are in the game of pool?

Also, if a system had that # of 'markers' would you agree that that system would then not require the 'feel' of utilizing any intuition or subjectively built subconscious data base from which to draw in order to just pocket the balls with all of those angles involved?

Would you agree that one would then just visually see a shot, visually recognize the angle of the shot & then utilize the associated visual 'marker' from that system for that particular shot angle?

Hence the need for what is 'defined' as 'feel' (intuition or the use of an individually build subjective subconscious data base) would not be needed to 'aim' with that type of system.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here in all of that is:

How many visual markers would it take in order to get the need for feel out of the realm of 'aiming' when playing the game of pool.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Pat has the answer for that, trust me, and for several distances and pocket sizes IIRC. It's a lot for a 6' shot into a 4 1/2" corner pockets is all I can remember.
 
How many 'markers' would you calculate it would take to have a marker for each, every, & all of the shot angles that there are in the game of pool?
More than you can define. The drawing below shows that it takes at least 25 in each direction just to make a spot shot into a 4.5" pocket. When the OB is farther from the pocket, at a worse angle, or the pocket is smaller, it takes more.

...if a system had that # of 'markers' would you agree that that system would then not require the 'feel' of utilizing any intuition or subjectively built subconscious data base from which to draw in order to just pocket the balls with all of those angles involved?
As far as knowing what the right alignment is, yes. But "seeing" the right alignment and aligning to it precisely, especially when there are so many, also requires feel.

How many visual markers would it take in order to get the need for feel out of the realm of 'aiming' when playing the game of pool.
Just to define markers - probably 75 or so in each direction. To actually use them successfully, probably impossible without feel.


pj
chgo

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"Objective" in aiming means something we all can see and identify in the same way. What objective thing(s) should we look for to know when we've "acquired the visual"?

pj <- this all sounds so familiar...
chgo

CTE visuals can be seen. It takes a little desire and work...something that you have decided to avoid.

I can get a group together of 4/5 students and if you show up....you will likely be the only
one that is visually NOT smart enough to aquire the visuals.

Stan Shuffett
 
Hi Patrick,

Just for discussion purposes, let us assume that 'feel' does not exist.

Let us also assume that there are only a number of 'aiming methods' that all utilize our ability to visually see 'markers' of some type for each method that indicates the cue stick alignment required to pocket balls on all the different angles to the pocket with only a vertical center line hit on the cue ball.

How many 'markers' would you calculate it would take to have a marker for each, every, & all of the shot angles that there are in the game of pool?

Also, if a system had that # of 'markers' would you agree that that system would then not require the 'feel' of utilizing any intuition or subjectively built subconscious data base from which to draw in order to just pocket the balls with all of those angles involved?

Would you agree that one would then just visually see a shot, visually recognize the angle of the shot & then utilize the associated visual 'marker' from that system for that particular shot angle?

Hence the need for what is 'defined' as 'feel' (intuition or the use of an individually build subjective subconscious data base) would not be needed to 'aim' with that type of system.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here in all of that is:

How many visual markers would it take in order to get the need for feel out of the realm of 'aiming' when playing the game of pool.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

One and only one marker is needed for any and all shots.

The marker on the table that makes the OB go where ever you want. Yep just one.......oh and before the professional player requirement gets tossed out.....best read some of Babe Cranfield.

Any other added markers needed to be in use by a system is just adding a unnecesssary level of complication.

Distance nor pocket opening matter, nor does the degree of cut angle.

BTW.....overtime feel becomes muscle memory and this includes your eyes since muscles are used by them.

What you see in your minds eyes is determined by the muscles in your eyes.

Only time I use totally feel only is on a never before done shot that I have no muscle memory of doing. Never experienced the shot....first time pure feel. Now because of the extent of muscle memory I have, chances are the shot will be made.

If I did not have a developed the depth of muscle memory I have, the greater the chance of missing the ball.

And just where did this depth of muscle memory come from......HAMB or more commonly known as practice.

oh, there are two types of people that play pool.......

Those that play at pool

And

Those that play pool.

And yes there is a difference.
 
CTE visuals can be seen.
All "visuals" can be seen. To be "objective" they have to be describable in a way that we can recognize them when we see them. The only way I've ever heard of to learn to recognize CTE's visuals is to practice (using the CTE and aimlines as guides), and eventually "you'll know it when you see it" for each cut angle. "You'll know it when you see it" is called feel.

pj
chgo
 
More than you can define. The drawing below shows that it takes at least 25 just to make a spot shot into a 4.5" pocket. When the OB is farther from the pocket or the pocket is smaller, it takes more.


As far as knowing what the right alignment is, yes. But "seeing" the right alignment and aligning to it precisely, especially when there are so many, also requires feel.


Just to define markers - probably 75 or so (and another 75 or so in the other cut direction). To actually use them successfully, probably impossible without feel.


pj
chgo

View attachment 97338

2 CTE visuals make every shot on a 2x1 somewhere and usually to the pocket desired.

Why mess with a zillion different shots....

Stan Shuffett
 
All "visuals" can be seen. To be "objective" they have to be describable in a way that we can recognize them when we see them. The only way I've ever heard of to learn to recognize CTE's visuals is to practice (using the CTE and aimlines as guides), and eventually "you'll know it when you see it" for each cut angle. "You'll know it when you see it" is called feel.

pj
chgo

Oh. That is your language/math definition of how yiu want it to be...

But sorry, pool is a visually driven game and YES the CTE perceptions can be described and learned and repeated.

CTE is about a different way of looking at CB OB relationships...not your 2d stuff which is old material....

I am sorry you can not allow yourself to tap into the specialness of CTE....

Stan Shuffett
 
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