Fear of Feel
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
BieberLvr,
I read the posts before it and past it. I dont think CTE was mentioned or intended to be mentioned about. I think we were talking about "Feel" and how you feel shots even when you thought you had a point picked out on the ball to hit with the other ball as in cp 2 cp shot making.
Depth perception comes into play and since you cant see through to the other side of the object ball one has to feel this in order to play the shot...in a method/system that does not involve CTE.
Thats what I think was occurring here and I didnt see anything referencing how CTE does it but regardless of how that happens CIT happens on all Center Ball shots and unless the ball goes wide on its natural shot path, it can be drawn into the pocket point by the CIT.
Different levels of feel? Sure I think one has to train their feel but I equate the most of it as depth perception which we all have but some of us are better at using it than others, so once you get used to making a depth perception adjustment naturally it gets easier.
Bieber I know very little about CTE but I think Ive read somewhere on this forum that it takes into account the CIT by sending the ball wide to outer of the pocket, which causes the pot to the center of the pocket which I can understand and appreciate. Im not sure why this matters so much.
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Sure, although I don't know that the differences are significant.
No. I'd say that CTE and other methods all can narrow the range of estimations (I suppose you could call that "less feel"), but I don't think CTE is better than any of them. In fact, I think it's overcomplicated and counter-instructive compared to the rest.
But that's my opinion. There are obviously players who love CTE and get a lot from it, and more power to them. I don't "hate" it or want to "destroy" it or Stan's business. I just insist on being able to discuss it candidly, especially since it's advertised so heavily here.
pj
chgo
As ones skills increase, the use of feel changes.
A newbie will use feel until they get a feel for the aiming method they chose to use.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for how spin works.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for CB speed.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for doing combos.
And so on.
At some point, feel is really used less and less. The only time true feel would be used after that point, would be for shots never done before.
At some point, feel is really just needed for precise position.
For a simple OB, 2 inches from the pocket and the CB 1 inch from the OB doing a stop shot, a newbie. ie someone really new to ther game may need feel to make that, whereas truly experienced player will not.
Feel is also big part on moving balls around the table that is needed to do in 14.1 at times.
But even then, once enough experienced has been obtained by HAMB, feel is not as needed as much since past experiences are replacing the need for feel.
I really think it has more to do with not trusting yourself than fear of feel.
Not trusting yourself that the shot is aimed right, hence the need for backup system for aiming.....ie second guessing yourself.
The repetitive visual impact of seeing the proper hit of the CB and OB that makes the OB go where you want is what makes all systems works, not the mechanics of the system.
Trust what you see......not what you think you need to see.
A newbie will use feel until they get a feel for the aiming method they chose to use.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for how spin works.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for CB speed.
After that, a newbie will use feel until they get a feel for doing combos.
And so on.
At some point, feel is really used less and less. The only time true feel would be used after that point, would be for shots never done before.
At some point, feel is really just needed for precise position.
For a simple OB, 2 inches from the pocket and the CB 1 inch from the OB doing a stop shot, a newbie. ie someone really new to ther game may need feel to make that, whereas truly experienced player will not.
Feel is also big part on moving balls around the table that is needed to do in 14.1 at times.
But even then, once enough experienced has been obtained by HAMB, feel is not as needed as much since past experiences are replacing the need for feel.
I really think it has more to do with not trusting yourself than fear of feel.
Not trusting yourself that the shot is aimed right, hence the need for backup system for aiming.....ie second guessing yourself.
The repetitive visual impact of seeing the proper hit of the CB and OB that makes the OB go where you want is what makes all systems works, not the mechanics of the system.
Trust what you see......not what you think you need to see.
CTE aside for the moment, the obvious differences in the amount of feel is dependent on the shot at hand. A diamond separating the CB and OB with the OB hanging in the pocket will require less feel than a full table 60 degree cut.
Was the "it's advertised so heavily here" really worth mentioning? Especially considering it's absolutely false. Talking about something is not the same as advertising.
Both CJ and Stan talk about their methods here, but CJ has links in his signature, and constantly makes threads and posts and provides links to his site to purchase his DVDs. That's advertising.
Heck, even Dr. Dave with his BU Exam and Aiming videos has advertised on here more than Stan.
I'd say it requires more precision. I think the "amount" of feel is measured by how much of the aiming equation it represents, which doesn't change with shot difficulty.
I guess we disagree about what constitutes advertising.
pj
chgo
My belief (in case you hadn't noticed) is that all aiming necessarily involves learning to recognize the correct "shot picture" or "visual" based on repetitive trial and error - otherwise known as learning to do it "by feel". Obviously learning this way can be aided by a system or method, but I believe it can't be eliminated or replaced as the central aiming requirement.
Some players seem to want (need?) to believe otherwise, unwilling to consider evidence to the contrary. Maybe they lack confidence in their ability to do it - and that's understandable; it amazes me we can do it. And maybe, since confidence is such a big part of successful play, they start with a strong desire to believe "feel" can be avoided.
Do you agree "fear of feel" exists? If so, why do you think it does? And should we try to educate players about the unavoidability of learning by feel, or simply leave them to form their own beliefs? Can it be bad for some players' development to recognize this (assumed) fact?
Thanks,
pj
chgo
P.S. I hope this doesn't become focused on any particular aiming method. Please let's keep it generic if we can.
And if it's just too "volatile" a subject, feel free to ignore it (like you need my permission for that).
I don't think "fear" even plays into the point. When it comes to pocketing balls we strive for effectiveness, efficiency, consistency. Stroke and experience is always a large part of the equation, there is no absolute substitute or shortcut.
For some, learning shot pictures for every possible shot on the table works for them. It works for me too, if I have a lifetime of hours to commit. So then begs the question, is there a more effective way than HAMB? It appears a lot of people may think so. For me, the addition of objective references to the "shot picture" makes a huge leap in effectiveness given the same amount of effort. That is the real reason to move past pure "feel", if it has something positive to add to ones pool playing experience and ability. IMHO there are more effective ways to play this game than pure rote. Ghostball itself is an aid in aiming, just not the most efficient of choices.
I think this is a really good video at explaining the basics of "3 alignment" systems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8IesgEXbvU
90/90 is the simplest most "crude" form of these systems (90/90, SEE system, CTE)
I recommend just trying the first two minutes of the video just to understand that there is a fundamental difference between "3 Alignment" aiming, and other methods, such as ghost ball, or fractional aiming.
I understand that you don't want new players to be misled, and you don't want them wasting their time. But if you can't take the two minutes to figure out the difference between these systems, and fractional aiming, I'm starting to doubt if you care about saving anyone any time.
Obviously there are people who do not share your sentiments about these aiming systems. These same people who understand both CTE, and Ghost ball etc. I don't understand why the people who only know one side of the coin are spear-heading the campaign on telling people how to aim, or how not to aim.
It's a win-break even proposition. Try 90/90/CTE/SEE system, if it works, great, If it doesn't you can still go back to hitting a million balls.
So to any new people, try the video. If you like it, and want something more precise, try CTE. If not, keep hitting a million balls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8IesgEXbvU
90/90 is the simplest most "crude" form of these systems (90/90, SEE system, CTE)
I recommend just trying the first two minutes of the video just to understand that there is a fundamental difference between "3 Alignment" aiming, and other methods, such as ghost ball, or fractional aiming.
I understand that you don't want new players to be misled, and you don't want them wasting their time. But if you can't take the two minutes to figure out the difference between these systems, and fractional aiming, I'm starting to doubt if you care about saving anyone any time.
Obviously there are people who do not share your sentiments about these aiming systems. These same people who understand both CTE, and Ghost ball etc. I don't understand why the people who only know one side of the coin are spear-heading the campaign on telling people how to aim, or how not to aim.
It's a win-break even proposition. Try 90/90/CTE/SEE system, if it works, great, If it doesn't you can still go back to hitting a million balls.
So to any new people, try the video. If you like it, and want something more precise, try CTE. If not, keep hitting a million balls.
My belief (in case you hadn't noticed) is that all aiming necessarily involves learning to recognize the correct "shot picture" or "visual" based on repetitive trial and error - otherwise known as learning to do it "by feel". Obviously learning this way can be aided by a system or method, but I believe it can't be eliminated or replaced as the central aiming requirement.
Some players seem to want (need?) to believe otherwise, unwilling to consider evidence to the contrary. Maybe they lack confidence in their ability to do it - and that's understandable; it amazes me we can do it. And maybe, since confidence is such a big part of successful play, they start with a strong desire to believe "feel" can be avoided.
Do you agree "fear of feel" exists? If so, why do you think it does? And should we try to educate players about the unavoidability of learning by feel, or simply leave them to form their own beliefs? Can it be bad for some players' development to recognize this (assumed) fact?
Thanks,
pj
chgo
P.S. I hope this doesn't become focused on any particular aiming method. Please let's keep it generic if we can.
And if it's just too "volatile" a subject, feel free to ignore it (like you need my permission for that
It is the fear of the unknown. When you are staring at an object ball and a pocket, choosing a hit point, its not as if you always know. I think there is a great tendency to wonder....is this ball going in and how bad is it going to be if I miss?
Without something to elicit some major confidence I think these questions have a dramatic impact on the Natural Aiming Scenario.
People put too much thought into this kind of crap...just get down and shoot the shot. Arguing about what is feel, what systems use feel, how much feel is required...its pointless. Aiming is best done when as little as possible though goes into it. If I concentrate on precision too much, like I must hit this specific contact point I will miss the shot or make the shot and screw up position. The top players are not the smartest guys in the world, and I think that goes for a variety of sports. They reach the top because they don't spend hours arguing about petty subjects on a forum. They reach the top because they enjoy the game, and as a result put a lot of hours in. Trying to dissect every ounce of the aiming process, trying to dissect exactly what our body is doing zaps all the fun out. Such and such system isn't what it describes because there must be feel involved blah blah blah. I FEEL you have nothing better to do with your days and I FEEL sorry for you.
You are right!
Pidge,
You are so right to a great extent. What I found was that there was a few voids that were holding people back and I tried to correct a few omissions in what I call the natural aiming scenario. It provides a better understanding on shot walkup and gives clues to base decisions on that are more finite that what most of us grew up having. I probably should have named my System the Un System.
I try to focus on easy visual solutions but give concrete reasoning out as to how to do it. This gives those of us who have doubts as to whether or not feel is real and use able that yes it really is. Hopefully I will give people hope that they can and will be able to feel the game. Not everyone is born with the same spatial reasoning abilities and that is why people have gone looking for other ways that people like you and I find a bit easier to digest and use. In fact I felt there had to be better ways of reasoning out shots that would enable greater chances of learning and that is what I found. I just hope that I am able to help people bridge those gaps of self doubt and enable them to enjoy the game more because I sure do and thats all I use.
Pidge,
You are so right to a great extent. What I found was that there was a few voids that were holding people back and I tried to correct a few omissions in what I call the natural aiming scenario. It provides a better understanding on shot walkup and gives clues to base decisions on that are more finite that what most of us grew up having. I probably should have named my System the Un System.
I try to focus on easy visual solutions but give concrete reasoning out as to how to do it. This gives those of us who have doubts as to whether or not feel is real and use able that yes it really is. Hopefully I will give people hope that they can and will be able to feel the game. Not everyone is born with the same spatial reasoning abilities and that is why people have gone looking for other ways that people like you and I find a bit easier to digest and use. In fact I felt there had to be better ways of reasoning out shots that would enable greater chances of learning and that is what I found. I just hope that I am able to help people bridge those gaps of self doubt and enable them to enjoy the game more because I sure do and thats all I use.
He won't! With Stan and his followers, it's their way or the highway!
No one needs to "slander" Stan. He does a much better job of doing that himself!
Hi Pidge,
Bull Durham.
'Wear a garter belt under your uniform & breathe out of your eyes'.
If it works, that is all that matters.
But don't tell every pitcher coming through town that it's wearing a garter belt & breathing out of their eyes that will get it done & get them to 'The Show'.
Because it's not. It's listening to an experienced catcher that knows pitching is more than just throwing heat because he, the experienced catcher, has a 'feel' for the game.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
Has anyone ever mentioned that your Road Runner avitar & the Central Florida Randy would make a good 'acronym' for Scott Lee.?
I'm not saying you are or anything like that. I just noticed the connection of Randy, Florida, & the Road Runner & found it sort of funny.:lol:
Best 2 You...& All,
Rick
We do have a few things in common. We're about the same age and have been playing the game for a very long time, and we both believe that learning and practicing the basic fundamentals is the key to becoming a better player.
Are you out of your ever loving mind? Anybody who is involved with CTE has learned to play pool and use multiple aiming systems throughout their lives and there are those who still interchange systems but use CTE as their primary method because they found it was a more consistent method of pocketing balls.
You see, we already know what you know as well as PJ and probably more when it comes to all aiming systems. Many of us have played as long or longer than you with or without CTE. Many of us would probably be able to bust you of all your money and worldly possessions playing pool. And most of us aren't afraid to give our real names on this forum or video ourselves playing and doing shotmaking tests.
It warms my heart to see those like yourself use other aiming systems or "feel". Be happy at whatever level you play. But it's the PJ's of the world and followers like you who keep sticking your noses in with obsessions like religious extremists to behead and castrate others who just want to do their own thing by using CTE. Nobody wants or cares to convert you.
Why don't you get on a new kick and tear the Diamond System to shreds, Kicking Systems or various Banking Systems. I'm sure it would be a life long war with those systems also if you applied yourself. You don't like CTE?? Stay the hell OUT!! Get a life!!!
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It amazes me that so many people who play pool cannot read. If they could, they wouldn't need to worry about "aiming" because the one thing you will learn about aiming in this article from the pros (http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/PnB_aiming.pdf)...almost everyone does it differently, and it works for them!
BTW, how many pros mention "feel" in this article?
BTW, how many pros mention "feel" in this article?
You're the main person right now who is worried about aiming. Why are you so worried what other people do, especially when it comes to CTE? Are you another one who wants to be a "savior" to all the hapless pool players that don't know any better or as much as you? Where can I purchase your books, DVDs, or schedule a lesson to be able to play as great as your skill level? You wouldn't care to put up a video of you playing just so I can get a "feel" of how many thousands of dollars I'm willing to spend to be able to get to your level, would you?
(I didn't think so) (another anonymous fraud hiding behind a keyboard)
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