Ferrule tenon

J

josie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am thinking of experimenting with the tenon size on my ferrules. I have always done the standard 5/16-18. I want to go with a bigger tenon (.350"-.375") and try a ferrule just pressed on (no threads). What materials should or shouldn't I use from for fear of cracking with the thin sidewall? Also, does anyone put on capped, non-threaded ferrules?

Thanks for the input.

Eric
 
use some very good LBM or the new yellow micarta.the yellow is stronger actually and less brittle.
 
masonh said:
use some very good LBM or the new yellow micarta.the yellow is stronger actually and less brittle.
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Mason,

In your opinion is the LBM Atlas sells good enough? Can your Micarta be used like I was talking? If so do you have any rod available and is there a way to pay you besides paypal? How would you descrdibe the hit of yours, soft or hard?

Thanks for the info.
 
I can give you several reasons for a larger tenon.

#1 Maple weighs less than LBM, Aegis, Micarta, ivory and just about any other ferrule mtrl you can think of.

#2 Tenon leverage. This applies primarily to longer tenons but the principle is the same.
Think of the tenon as a lever. The longer the lever, the greater force exerted at it's base or pivot point. For our purpose, this would be the base of the tenon. That's why they break.
If the tenon were of a larger diameter, it would take an even greater force to break it. Standard McD shafts have a 3/8" tenon. IIRC, Meucci's tenon is larger than 5/16" also. Both use a ferrule that is longer than 1".
1-1/8" & 1-1/4" respectfully.

#3 IMO, it stiffens the hit. That's not always a good thing unless that's what you're striving for. Different strokes, you know.

There is a serious drawback though. A larger dia. tenon restricts the amount of turn-down you can do. Again, not always a good thing but not always a bad thing either. It depends on what you want.
 
josie said:
I am thinking of experimenting with the tenon size on my ferrules. I have always done the standard 5/16-18. I want to go with a bigger tenon (.350"-.375") and try a ferrule just pressed on (no threads). What materials should or shouldn't I use from for fear of cracking with the thin sidewall? Also, does anyone put on capped, non-threaded ferrules?
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I think most people that do large tenons do them uncapped. If you're going for more wood, the cap kind of defeats the purpose. I think most stick to linen-based materials, since they seem to hold up better. I'd stay away from the cast stuff.
Predator ferrules are capped, and non threaded.
 
How about large tenon diameter (.350-.375), and short (1/2 inch maybe) ferrule?
Is that good idea?
 
"Is that good idea?" That's a great idea.

The 1" ferrule and those that are longer are a bit of over-kill IMO.
Next time you see a Predator BK2, take a look at the ferrule.
It's LBM, very short and sits on a tenon that's .410" dia. or there abouts.
Mind you, this is on a break cue.
 
Hey KJ, I was thinking in same direction... But since I'm new here, didn't want to say something ridiculous. :)
What is your opinion- capped or not, threaded or sleeved....? Is it really matter?
 
I've tried 3/8 16, 3/18 24, .350 with 16 tpi and 24 tpi ( live threaded ).
I've tried 5/16 18 uncapped and capped.
You will have to find out what you like, really.
 
josie said:
I just wanted to do some experimenting and I like the idea of a bigger tenon for strength.
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I repair very few broken tenons, but I repair a ton of cracked ferrules. As far as deflection....I don't think the AVERAGE player can tell the difference between a 1 1/4" ferrule & a 1/2" ferrule. I personally play with a ferrule that is 1 1/8" long, with a 5/16" hole & it is 12.5 mm at the tip. I have had players shoot towards a spot on the rail (from 8 ft. away), with extreame english. Then changed to a Predator shaft & repeat the drill. Most see little or no difference...JER
 
I don't think the AVERAGE player can tell the difference between a 1 1/4" ferrule & a 1/2" ferrule.
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i couldn't disagree more with this statement.i think there is a huge difference between .5" and 1.25" ferrules deflection wise especially in LBM or ivory or something heavy.i would say the helpless player might not be able to tell a difference but anyone who can run 5 balls or more will see a difference.

i think the LBM at Atlas varies,not sure what they have in stock right now,i would make sure i buy rod though if i was going with LBM.

i only have tube in stock right now,but the rod should be in next week.i also accept USPS money order.

mine will work fine for what you are talking about.my tenon is a little under .350" and i drill and tap my ferrules 3/8-10.i have lots of ferrules out there in the 12.5mm range that aren't breaking.
 
player52 said:
Hey KJ, I was thinking in same direction... But since I'm new here, didn't want to say something ridiculous. :)
What is your opinion- capped or not, threaded or sleeved....? Is it really matter?
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Forget ridiculous. I do ridiculous everyday.
If you have a question that pertains to cues, ask it. That's what this forum is here for.

I'm going to suggest that you play around with the different ideas you have on ferrule design and decide for yourself what works best for you. The ferrule contributes greatly to the hit of a cue and it's playability.

The BK2 ferrule has a fairly thin side-wall but it is capped. There is a pad on top of that under a phenolic tip. That's certainly not their weak point.

Try the different lengths and the different tenon diameters and of course different ferrule mtrls.
I understand that this will take a considerable amount of time but if you want to know, then this is what you have to do. Otherwise, all you have is someone else's opinion. The effort is great but then so is the gained knowledge.
 
deflection test

BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I repair very few broken tenons, but I repair a ton of cracked ferrules. As far as deflection....I don't think the AVERAGE player can tell the difference between a 1 1/4" ferrule & a 1/2" ferrule. I personally play with a ferrule that is 1 1/8" long, with a 5/16" hole & it is 12.5 mm at the tip. I have had players shoot towards a spot on the rail (from 8 ft. away), with extreame english. Then changed to a Predator shaft & repeat the drill. Most see little or no difference...JER
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I understand your premise here, BUT, If you shoot a shot almost on the rail that's a thin cut with inside english from about center table about four feet away and try to three rail position to the other end of the table you might hit the ball in the face or miss it entirely, depending on switching to a low deflection cue or a high deflection cue. I hope you understand what I mean. It's kind of misleading shooting at a target eight feet away and thinkiing an eighth of an inch is a good amount or acceptable amount of deflection. Anyone agree? Hope I'm explaining it right, because I'm pretty sure I'm right , might not be explaining it correctly.
thanks, JerseyBill
 
JerseyBill said:
I understand your premise here, BUT, If you shoot a shot almost on the rail that's a thin cut with inside english from about center table about four feet away and try to three rail position to the other end of the table you might hit the ball in the face or miss it entirely, depending on switching to a low deflection cue or a high deflection cue. I hope you understand what I mean. It's kind of misleading shooting at a target eight feet away and thinkiing an eighth of an inch is a good amount or acceptable amount of deflection. Anyone agree? Hope I'm explaining it right, because I'm pretty sure I'm right , might not be explaining it correctly.
thanks, JerseyBill
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My post is not a guess or theory. It is just what I said. It was Average players finding little or no difference, with the 2 shafts. These are 3-4 level APA players. That is what I call AVERAGE. I can tell the difference, but I personally just don't like the Predator's hit. As for the others, I have found several other miracle shafts, to be only slightly better in reducing deflection. At the inflated price of these shafts, I just can't recommend them, to the average customers. I bet I get 1/2 a dozen guys a week asking me, if they buy one of these shafts, will it improve their game. They don't want to take lessons or spend the time & money practicing. They want a shaft to make them better. Don't get me wrong, for more advanced players, a product that makes even a small bit of improvment, is probably worth it. Just not for me personally. I'm making a $1600 cue for a friend. He had me fit him with a shaft from Mcdermott, for his old cue. He is a level 6, in the APA league. Since getting the new shaft his play is as good as ever....but no better. On his new BLACK HEART CUE, he wants the same kind of shaft made. If it makes him feel more confident...then more power to him...JER
 
I have been using large tenon short ferrules on all the cues and shafts I've built. My thoughts behind this is based on the desire to have a cue that allows for more of the resonance to be transfered by having more wood and less plastic close to where you impact the cue ball. This ends up reducing the end mass which lowers the deflection to a point in between a standard 1"+ inch capped ferrule and a super low deflection Predator Shaft. I've even used Mason Micarta with a 1/5 inch.0400 tenon 12.9 mm tip and it has held up wonderful, that is some strong material.

I highly recommend trying it and comparing it against a regular shaft regarding the hit quality and how easy it is to more the ball around the table with English.
 
I bet I get 1/2 a dozen guys a week asking me, if they buy one of these shafts, will it improve their game. They don't want to take lessons or spend the time & money practicing. They want a shaft to make them better.
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this i couldn't agree more with.it would be nice to buy a shaft that would make you play 2 balls better overnight but it doesn't exist.

low deflection is not necessarily better than standard or above average deflection;it's just lower.if you practice and play 10 years with a 1.25" long ivory capped ferrule and say you get to be a good short stop.you might not like a low deflection shaft at all ever.

i have seen plenty of great players run out like water with standard deflection shafts.it is really just what you like and what you are used to.

as far as for strength,i feel like the 5/16 tenon is plenty strong.i do the 3/8 tenons just for feel and to decrease deflection.i do like low deflection shafts as long as they still have the solid feel.
 
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