Never mind.
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Ferrule threaded on or no?
- Thread starter captainjko
- Start date
The only thing I can add, is that the more concentric the threads are cut into each piece, the more concentric the items will assemble when they are threaded on. Funny enough, it does not seem to matter what the clearance is, only the concentricity actually matters. So live thread, or single pointed will always be more concentric than most tap and die arrangements. Concentric threads, also lock up a lot better than non concentric threads do , and not just for cue parts. An advantage of a threaded assembly , is that the components can be already partially in tension and compression, so any impact is already being compensated for. Slide together parts have no preload applied, so they have to move more than a pre stressed assembly. Like anything, movement over time creates fatigue. The greater the movement the shorter the time. The less movement, the longer the time frame.
Neil
Neil
Absolutely, so preload is always attempting to get away so to speak. The way I do it is not slip fit, and not exactly press fit, but just slight interference. It just fits, stays where I put it, without pressure to move. Again, it's what I do and with no judgement at all on how others do it.
Good post Neil,,,,,,,, I'd bet you are a real machinist.
I would think glue would be considered a chemical bond vs mechanical correct?
Yes I have, but think the threads are a little fine. I have done it many times with 5/16-14 without any issues.
Am I wasting time threading the butt plate too?
Some just use the weight bolt to hold the Delrin butt plate.
Some just use the weight bolt to hold the Delrin butt plate.
Maybe. Maybe not. It's nobody's business. I have enough respect for both you and myself to acknowledge that our knowledge & experience will differ in ways. I can only presume that you do what's best for your cues, even though it may be different than what I do on mine.
Not slip fit? Then you're threading? Call it what you want, if there are no threads involved I'm pretty sure it would be considered slip fitting. How tight you make the slip fit is going to make a difference in the holding power of the glue.
Being a "real' machinist has zero to do with threading or slip fitting a piece of plastic over some wood. I mean, how years of school do I need to be able to figure that one out? Zero....anyone should be able to slip fit one material over another if you can turn on a lathe.
It's common sense.....if the glue fails...and there are no threads what's going to happen? Good Lord man...if you can't figure that one out.
If the glue fails and there are threads...the all nasty "preload" is going to still hold the two parts in place.
The only argument anyone who is slip fitting..press fitting...sliding one piece of material over another is the quality of the glue holding the two pieces in place. That is it....zip, zero, lock stock and barrel. Comprende?
So...you have the confidence in your glue alone.
I have the confidence in my glue and a mechanical "preload" or whatever else you would like to refer to it as.
Would this include the meucci pro shaft? I've had one for about three years, and it now makes a plastic tick on some shots. Everything feels solid on the ferrule but why would it make that sound? It does feel like I'm missing something on shots these days
A real machinist would never use those statements about a slip fit, which I didn't say I use. The very term "slip" means it can move. Press means you have to force it together, which is not good in this application. Interference fit is precise size somewhere in between, that does not put undo pressure on either part. It's basic joinery.
Where did I slam what you do to your cues? Where did I say I care? Are yours better than mine? I don't care. Do my customers buy yours instead of mine? Nope. Do mine come back for ferrule repairs? Not yet.
Comprende?
The OP asked a simple question and I gave him my answer. Why do you need to hijack his thread with this garbage? My opinion is threads are not necessary with parts machined to fit correctly. I could have said threads are better if one cannot do that,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There might be a loose epoxy between the cap and top of the tenon.
Or an epoxy has failed in some part or parts of the tenon and ferrule.
If that ferrule were threaded, imo it would be a lot more stable when it ages.
An interference fit when using wood, is only that, an interference fit. at the time you put it together. It Is NOT the same as two metal surfaces with an interference fit. Wood changes with temp and much more importantly, humidity AND at a greater amount then metal can ever do. An interference fit with epoxy works well at the time of assembly and for a period of time after, but once the forces of nature take a toll, shrink/expand ...repeat....as the weather changes, coupled with being pounded into a cue ball over and over, things change and the glue bond breaks, and then the inevitable will happen.. ferrule comes loose. It's not an opinion, it's a fact, based on many experiences by many people that have worked with wood and cues for decades. If a tenon is made while in a humid climate, and 3 months later it is in a very dry climate, guess what will happen, the tenon will eventually shrink, and even a .002 will be enough to cause separation. Unless you are using a glue that never fully hardens....and therefore shrinks/expands with the changes while still maintaining the grip..(doesn't exist in our world).there will be a separation. Threading is the only way to try to compensate for that, and even then, there are quite a few screwed and glued ferrules from china that I have had to reglue due to the ferrule coming loose and being able to be unscrewed...but they didn't use epoxy, it was a hide type glue,, but they where also made in a different climate then where I am at. Depending where you are located, if your weather is very stable all year long, you may never see what some of us that have 70-80% humidity in summer and 10-20% in the winter.
The most made cues that use slip fit ferrules are bar cues, followed by the really cheap 2 piece cues, need more be said?
Dave
Thx joey, I love reading about all this stuff guys. This forum is THE place to get straight answers. I know nothing about building cues, and u guys readily fill in the blanks nonstop, thx, much appreciated.
Slip fit is exactly that, a slip fit. Call it whatever you like, but if you install your collars by slipping them over a tenon with your fingers, it's a slip fit. You don't have to justify your method. Your cue should do that on its own.
Something interesting to me as I read through this topic is that nobody is wrong. Usually topics are about 70% full of BS, with the truth being drown out by the inexperienced newbs. In this thread, I can't find anybody who's wrong. Two easy examples are Meucci & McDermott. Meucci threaded nothing but the "A" joint in most of their cues, even the ones with steel joint collars. McDermott threaded dang near everything. Both brands have a long history of being quality, solid, good playing cues. Both brands produced tens of thousands of cues. Something I never have known common to either brand is collars or ferrules falling off. Meucci may have had a few issues with failed ferrules, but not often ferrules falling off. And to be fair, whether you agree with the ferrule design or not, the issue of failed ferrules wasn't big in comparison to the amount of shafts they produced. Either company has made more cues than all of combined, by a lot. So who are we to say one camp is better than the other? Do what you do & let your cues do the talking.
Something interesting to me as I read through this topic is that nobody is wrong. Usually topics are about 70% full of BS, with the truth being drown out by the inexperienced newbs. In this thread, I can't find anybody who's wrong. Two easy examples are Meucci & McDermott. Meucci threaded nothing but the "A" joint in most of their cues, even the ones with steel joint collars. McDermott threaded dang near everything. Both brands have a long history of being quality, solid, good playing cues. Both brands produced tens of thousands of cues. Something I never have known common to either brand is collars or ferrules falling off. Meucci may have had a few issues with failed ferrules, but not often ferrules falling off. And to be fair, whether you agree with the ferrule design or not, the issue of failed ferrules wasn't big in comparison to the amount of shafts they produced. Either company has made more cues than all of combined, by a lot. So who are we to say one camp is better than the other? Do what you do & let your cues do the talking.
I suppose you somewhere "in between" your slip fit and your press fit on your A joint also? No threads there either? why not?
You say the OP asked a simple question and you gave an answer?
You say threads are not necessary with machined parts to fit correctly?
I don't disagree with either one of your answers.
So what's the problem? As we go back and read some of your replies throughout this thread it is pretty easy to see who is doing the jacking.
I'm sorry Frank but you're not making grade. I believe you would be better suited to transfer out to say...pens, key chains or something like kites. Is it windy where you are? Yeah, kites might fit your needs a little better.
If you are talking Delrin then threading adds an extra measure of security. The weight bolt holding it on is fine too. My personal playing cue since 1989 has a Delrin butt cap primarily held on by the weight bolt. Either way threads are holding it on. The weight bolt certainly holds Delrin just as your threads will. SO both work just fine. Delrin is not a good slip fit and glue material in my experience. Others have found glues and methods of grooving that hold them on with no threading or weight bolt. It is just not the way I do it. I never liked Delrin for ferrules, not because threaded and glued came loose as it did not, but because they rejected tips too often.
For all those saying the thread their ferrules,
(...Assuming you’ve replaced ferrules on LD shafts)
Do you install and thread a tenon on OB, Predator, or any other shafts that come stock with a “slip fit” ferrule?
I once had a customer that brought me an OB1+ shaft(the ones with the wooden ferrules) and asked me to install a regular ferrule. These shafts are hollow and have a very thin walled hollow tenon and would also have a very thin walled ferrule. I told him it could be risky and had a good chance of failure due this but he insisted. So I went ahead and installed a Tomahawk ferrule and everything went swimmingly. I just made sure both the ferrule and tenon had many epoxy channels while keeping a nice snug fit. The shaft ended up playing awesome as well, I honestly wanted to keep it for myself it played and sounded real sweet.
It’s been months now and he says it still plays great and hasn’t had any problems.
That was a little off topic, but what I’m wondering is if that is how you would have done this or would you have installed a tenon into the shaft in able to thread a ferrule on?
Here is a photo of the finished result (yes I left the ferrule just a hair oversized because the side walls were THIN, customer couldn’t tell but it made me feel slightly better about it’s ridgitity).
(...Assuming you’ve replaced ferrules on LD shafts)
Do you install and thread a tenon on OB, Predator, or any other shafts that come stock with a “slip fit” ferrule?
I once had a customer that brought me an OB1+ shaft(the ones with the wooden ferrules) and asked me to install a regular ferrule. These shafts are hollow and have a very thin walled hollow tenon and would also have a very thin walled ferrule. I told him it could be risky and had a good chance of failure due this but he insisted. So I went ahead and installed a Tomahawk ferrule and everything went swimmingly. I just made sure both the ferrule and tenon had many epoxy channels while keeping a nice snug fit. The shaft ended up playing awesome as well, I honestly wanted to keep it for myself it played and sounded real sweet.
It’s been months now and he says it still plays great and hasn’t had any problems.
That was a little off topic, but what I’m wondering is if that is how you would have done this or would you have installed a tenon into the shaft in able to thread a ferrule on?
Here is a photo of the finished result (yes I left the ferrule just a hair oversized because the side walls were THIN, customer couldn’t tell but it made me feel slightly better about it’s ridgitity).
I don't use epoxy on my ferrules nor super glue on my tips so I would have told him send it to someone else to do the job.
You say months and all is fine. You could have used probably just about any type of glue and it would still be holding up fine after only a few months.
Like some of the others in this thread, I believe you have the wrong idea about the discussion. There is no right or wrong.
Thirdly......crop your pictures next time. You're screwing up my computer.
ONLY if the tenon is broke .
Usually I tell them to send them to OB or Pred.
Btw, I think the CA you use on the tip is too thin.
Attachments
Eric brings up some interesting points. With the glues being manufactured today, who's to say how long they'll hold up?
Years ago I was sitting in the little restaurant at the Scanticon, or maybe it was the Radisson, during one of my first SBE visits. In walks a production cue company owner with a couple other guys in tow and they pull up chairs at table right next to mine.
Ironically part of the discussion they were involved in was very similar to this one. I was a bit shocked at how the talked turned to building cues with a shorter life span and how just assembling the cue as quick and inefficient as possible would help create an expanding industry for repair work. That was one of my first influences for threading parts.
If I were the owner of a production cue company I would not be threading on collars and ferrules either. I would be more concerned with how many cues I could produce in a shorter period of time with a higher bottom line.
But I'm not a huge company owner and have a different mind set for my end product.
Either way none of us will be here to be able to compare the 2 ways in 100 years anyway. I just hope they say those collars and ferrules are still just as tight as the day they were installed no matter how or who has done it.
This is the cue (no pun intended) for someone to get all up in arms about me saying if one slips their collars on you're not a custom builder.
