blud said:
FL's rant on the other board:
http://www.billiards-pool.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=210&forum=1
Will it ever end?
-CM~~can run 3 friggin balls
Last edited:
ferrules
- Thread starter cuewhiz189
- Start date
FL's rant on the other board:
http://www.billiards-pool.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=210&forum=1
Will it ever end?
-CM~~can run 3 friggin balls
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
I believe you have a confusion of terms. I suggest you look up the terms sliding, rolling, and static friction.Colin Colenso said:
That being said, the collision is just like any other collision. There's going to be friction. There's going to be energy. There's going to be momentum. Physics and mechanics as well as real-world studies point to the effective tip-end mass as the major contributor to the squirt angle.
Are there other tests that support another theory?
Fred
Fred Agnir said:
Fred,
You should re-read what I wrote, because it confirms and explains why tip end mass leads to squirt.
In fact, if friction were 100% tip end mass could not cause squirt. eg. If I throw a piece of putty (or sticky blu-tak) at a ball, and it hits the side and sticks, the resultant movement of the ball will be exactly in the line of movement of the mass that stuck it. This is a perfectly inelastic collision. (A better term than 100% friction or no slip).
As for terminology, I am trying to use what is easiest for the layman. Many terms used by players are unclear or used to mean various things.
I'm fairly confident in my physics knowledge, not only because I have a BSc. but I have studied kinematics for many years.
Sliding, rolling and static friction are irrelevant to what I am talking about.
Uh, I'm not trying to start anything, but I think the effect you are talking about is angular momentum caused by friction. If you throw a piece of putty at a ball and it hits the side and sticks the ball will spin and will not move exactly in the direction of the putty, but will deflect a little as well. That is an example of static friction at work. If the putty, or a cue tip, doesn't have "100% friction" and slips a little, that is kinetic friction, or sliding friction. And the ball will spin a little and deflect a little.Colin Colenso said:
longhair said:
No problem Longhair...it is important to clarify the effect of angluar momentum.
In a perfeclty inelastic collision that occurs away from the line of the centre of masses of the two colliding objects, angular momentum will be imparted. We can call this spin, though angular momentum is simply a way to measure a characteristic of a spinning object.
If the collision in perfectly inelastic, the resultant momentum will be conserved in terms of magintude and direction along the plane. Hence there cannot be deflection. This is a law of the conservation of momentum.
But as you say, if there is some slipping, we should call this a degree of elasticity, then there will be a resultant deflection. ( A squirt if you like).
This is my whole point, that there is some slipping, some elasticity on the collision. Not perfect grip as is assumed in Ron Shepard's paper.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf
Ron says in his conclusion "• Is squirt caused by the tip slipping on the ball? No, squirt occurs even when the tip
does not slip. The tip does not slip on normal shots."
This is his assumption and is not supported by any of the physics he used. He simply restated several known kinematics equations, which if he had investigated better would have proven his theory of impossible.
No doubt his calculation impressed the readers, but his assumption is wrong and the quite simple physics of the theory of conservation of momentum prove that.
I'll restate my contention for clarification:
1. Squirt is evidence of non-perfect (under 100%) grip between the cue tip and cue ball.
2. Cue end mass will be proportional to the amount of defelction resulting from partial elasticity of the collision.
3. Factors that effect grip (friction) such as ferrule softness, tip shape, type and amount of chalk and distant struck from centre of ball etc. will contribute to the amount of deflection.
Another point worth mentioning is the effect of soft or springy tips.
A soft tip will be deformed along the line of the centre of masses of the cue tip and cue ball, and then may elastically push the cue ball back along that line. This may explain some people's observation that soft springy tips cause more deflection. A hard, well shaped tip, well chalked, with a soft ferrule may be a better solution. Remeber that even a soft ferrule is compresses less than a hard tip, and that it will not compress as much along the line of the centre of masses hence less deflection, but still extra time of contact with the cue ball for added friction. (Note: This theory in the early stages).
Hmm, thinking again, I was wrong about deflection in a perfectly inelastic collision. My physical mechanics is rusty. However, I still don't think that elasticity and "slip" are the same. If they were, wouldn't an off center collision between two balls (highly elastic collision) involve "slip" and therefore deflection? I have not noticed this effect. On the other hand, I haven't made careful, instrumented observations. And maybe I just don't yet understand what you are trying to describe.Colin Colenso said:
OMG, I didn't know I had to relearn Physics and English all over again to play pool. lol
Lemme see, joules, newton, E=MC squared???
Gerund is a verb used as a noun. Past, present, future, progressive and perfect tenses??? lol
Lemme see, joules, newton, E=MC squared???
Gerund is a verb used as a noun. Past, present, future, progressive and perfect tenses??? lol
crap
Hey, guys, as I said before, it's to confussing, to understand what these brains, come with. It still comes down to the player. What he feel and adjusts to, period.........
Colin, you may be smart, and have a sheep skin hanging on your wall, but your missing the point. Now that you have made your point sir, What kind of cue do you use and how well do you play, or do you even play at all.
The point is called "ADJUSTMENT".
For my stroke, Ivory plays good to me, Plastic may play better for another, and so on. There are many products offered today, all will react differantly with differant people.
What's the point of confussion?
It still boils down to one thing, the guy using the tool. The, cue, tip, ferrule, joint size, steel or flat face, shaft taper, shaft size in MM,weight, balance, wrap, ect.
Consider the players, each of us, stand, stroke, address the ball, and apply more or less hitting force, and hold the cue tight or loose, evelate more or less than the next guy, top english, lower english, center ball english, side english. All of these things, come into play, with defeliction. ALL of THEM.
A player at any level, will adjust to his cue, and or cue parts, and or conditions.
To, Barney, [fast larry], your still trying to cause trouble. Go away. It's been nice without YOU, stiring crap.........
Blud
Hey, guys, as I said before, it's to confussing, to understand what these brains, come with. It still comes down to the player. What he feel and adjusts to, period.........
Colin, you may be smart, and have a sheep skin hanging on your wall, but your missing the point. Now that you have made your point sir, What kind of cue do you use and how well do you play, or do you even play at all.
The point is called "ADJUSTMENT".
For my stroke, Ivory plays good to me, Plastic may play better for another, and so on. There are many products offered today, all will react differantly with differant people.
What's the point of confussion?
It still boils down to one thing, the guy using the tool. The, cue, tip, ferrule, joint size, steel or flat face, shaft taper, shaft size in MM,weight, balance, wrap, ect.
Consider the players, each of us, stand, stroke, address the ball, and apply more or less hitting force, and hold the cue tight or loose, evelate more or less than the next guy, top english, lower english, center ball english, side english. All of these things, come into play, with defeliction. ALL of THEM.
A player at any level, will adjust to his cue, and or cue parts, and or conditions.
To, Barney, [fast larry], your still trying to cause trouble. Go away. It's been nice without YOU, stiring crap.........
Blud
hey everyone.....i am really regretting the fact i started this thread....i only asked and was wanting to know and am still wanting to know......HAS ANYONE PLAYED WITH THE FERRULES DAVE KIKEL IS USING CALLED THE "WOODY"....all this other nonsense being dragged over to this board from rsb is absolutely not wanted or needed....i just asked a question and stated a opinion......juston coleman
????
HAS ANYONE PLAYED WITH THE FERRULES DAVE KIKEL IS USING CALLED THE "WOODY".
?????
HAS ANYONE PLAYED WITH THE FERRULES DAVE KIKEL IS USING CALLED THE "WOODY".
?????
longhair said:Hmm, thinking again, I was wrong about deflection in a perfectly inelastic collision. My physical mechanics is rusty. However, I still don't think that elasticity and "slip" are the same. If they were, wouldn't an off center collision between two balls (highly elastic collision) involve "slip" and therefore deflection? I have not noticed this effect. On the other hand, I haven't made careful, instrumented observations. And maybe I just don't yet understand what you are trying to describe.
Actually, slipping is very strange when you think about it. Really there is no such thing as an inelastic collision at the atomic level. It really is an effect of the way surfaces interact. That is, the directions or angles which they meet at.
There is always force between two objects colliding. Slip basically indicated that the forces are mostly at a tangent.
If you flick the edge of a ruler at 90% to the side. It will move forward in that same direction while spinning. The flick is elastic in nature but applies force along the line of its movement. If the angle between your finger and ruler were different then the line of force would be different.
High grip basically means that the surface of the tip and chalk has penetrated into the surface of the cue ball and varios parts collide with surfaces which on average are near 90 degrees to the direction of the tip.
This may be hard to imagine. Try to imagine thousands of edges meeting, with thousands of small elastic collisions taking place. The better the penetration into the surface of the cue ball the more of the collisions will result in force in the direction of the movement of the cue.
So, slip really ain't slip. But it has its use to describe what we feel.
blud said:
Hey Blud,
I know you don't see much point to understanding what is really going on, but others find it quite interesting.
Do I play? Not much nowadays but I recently travelled back to Australia to play in one of their biggest tournies and made top16 after not playing with those balls or rules for over 3 years.
http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storyb.cfm?storynum=1724
I've never said that adjusting wasn't important. I go from cue to cue without too many problems. I've used brass, buckhorn, goathorn and some plastic cues. I've always used maple not ash.
I think the mind is the key to the game, but I would sure like to develop a cue that I can load up with spin, without worrying about a miscue and being able to make long hard pots consistantly doing it. I love to play the shots that most guys would not dream of trying. I want to make a cue that makes that thrill come true more often.
The way to achieve that is a scientific investigation.
I know you make ivory ferrules Blud. I've never played with one, but it is basically horn, just like buckhorn and goats horn and I thought they played much better than brass ferrules. A guy could still reach a top level using ivory. For me though, I just want to find the material that is as close to optimum as possible.
To Cuewhiz...sorry, never used and know nothing about the Woody...sorry to steal your thread.
top level
I know you make ivory ferrules Blud. I've never played with one, but it is basically horn, just like buckhorn and goats horn and I thought they played much better than brass ferrules. A guy could still reach a top level using ivory. For me though, I just want to find the material that is as close to optimum as possible.
Colin, [COULD REACH TOP LEVELS]. I think that statement is a little off.
Many top players and world champions past and present,have and continue to use IVORY for there ferrules.
Players like, Mizerak, Hall, DeLiberto, Matya, Griffin, the Fusco boys, Jack "Jersey" Red Brite, U.J.Pucket, Reid, Grady Mathews, Lane, Varner, Zugland,Martin,Corn-bread Red, Lascottie,just to name a few, and many more "did" reach top levels playing with IVORY.
One thing I feel your missing, is most of the TOP cuemakers, [the builders]prefer IVORY on there cues. Who should know what plays the best?
As listed below, not in any order,
Schick, stroud, Ernie @Gina cue, Scruggs, Motty,Porper,Taskarella,Fuller, Kikle, Black, Bludworth, and many more.The list is to long..........
As good cuemakers, we know what's best for our cues. it's not about the money.
{Rolls, uses it's own engine in there cars, not another made by whoever}.
I know how my cues play and what to construct them with, for there best playability.
Take all the past and present, world champions, and most will use IVORY. This should tell us something.....
Ivory sir, does not play like the horn you speak of. I have tired white tail deer, Black tail deer, elk, goat, Bull horns and sheep horns. No way it plays the same. Your assuming it's the same as horn. It is, not.
Ivory, is the best thing going with the top players past and present, until someone like yourself comes with the new deal.
All of the above named folks, have there opinions as you and me. It's my opinion that IVORY is best for me and my cues.........
Please keep me informed on your interesting research. Would love to try something NEW...
I wish you all the best, with your experaments.
blud
I know you make ivory ferrules Blud. I've never played with one, but it is basically horn, just like buckhorn and goats horn and I thought they played much better than brass ferrules. A guy could still reach a top level using ivory. For me though, I just want to find the material that is as close to optimum as possible.
Colin, [COULD REACH TOP LEVELS]. I think that statement is a little off.
Many top players and world champions past and present,have and continue to use IVORY for there ferrules.
Players like, Mizerak, Hall, DeLiberto, Matya, Griffin, the Fusco boys, Jack "Jersey" Red Brite, U.J.Pucket, Reid, Grady Mathews, Lane, Varner, Zugland,Martin,Corn-bread Red, Lascottie,just to name a few, and many more "did" reach top levels playing with IVORY.
One thing I feel your missing, is most of the TOP cuemakers, [the builders]prefer IVORY on there cues. Who should know what plays the best?
As listed below, not in any order,
Schick, stroud, Ernie @Gina cue, Scruggs, Motty,Porper,Taskarella,Fuller, Kikle, Black, Bludworth, and many more.The list is to long..........
As good cuemakers, we know what's best for our cues. it's not about the money.
{Rolls, uses it's own engine in there cars, not another made by whoever}.
I know how my cues play and what to construct them with, for there best playability.
Take all the past and present, world champions, and most will use IVORY. This should tell us something.....
Ivory sir, does not play like the horn you speak of. I have tired white tail deer, Black tail deer, elk, goat, Bull horns and sheep horns. No way it plays the same. Your assuming it's the same as horn. It is, not.
Ivory, is the best thing going with the top players past and present, until someone like yourself comes with the new deal.
All of the above named folks, have there opinions as you and me. It's my opinion that IVORY is best for me and my cues.........
Please keep me informed on your interesting research. Would love to try something NEW...
I wish you all the best, with your experaments.
blud
Colin Colenso said
That assumption is that the tip has 100% friction, or NO SLIDE on the cueball.
All of the experiments so far and the theory that has been developed from them are consistent with the tip not sliding on the cue ball. As Fred asked, do you have an experiment that would show otherwise?
If in fact this were entirely true, the cue call would stick to the end of the tip after impact.
I think you are confused about the basic nature of friction. By your argument, tires on cars would stick to the road and be ripped off the wheels. Of course, they are not.
That assumption is that the tip has 100% friction, or NO SLIDE on the cueball.
If in fact this were entirely true, the cue call would stick to the end of the tip after impact.
Some will suggest that it is effectively 100% friction, but I do not believe this opinion at this time as the eveidence is against such a theory.
What evidence?I believe that squirt is in fact the result of some inefficiency in grip. It is evidence of a partially elastic collision occuring. This explains perfectly why cues of low end mass have a lesser degree of deflection.
What has been observed can be explained by a completely elastic collision. No sliding is necessary.The physicists love to ignore friction where they can because it is so complex. It is hard to put into calculations.
I urge you to re-read Ron Shepard's papers on pool physics and squirt. He does discuss friction and even has worked problems related to friction.
cuewhiz189 said:
Same reason everyone doesn't use Joss Cues, or Palmer Cues, or Lucassi Cues, etc. Everyone has a different feel for what they want in a cue. What feels right to you mat not feel right to me. Predator has obviously lasted this long because there are a good amount of people who buy them, and play with them! Just remember: If everyone in the world only used one kind of cue, there would only be one maker.