finding the degree of your eye dominance

pagaspoling said:
… what I found works best for me and the players I teach is to disregard where the cue looks straight and focus on the balls.
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When the cue is angled for side spin, of course only the stick or the balls can look straight - but both can (and should) look straight for shots with no side spin.

And for shots with side spin, you can focus on balls or stick looking straight - either can work, depending on how you aim.

pj
chgo
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
A simple Google search will describe that is does happen, however it is above my pay grade to discuss various effects of flight or fight anxiety such as kaleidoscope vision. Many folks miss easy shots when the pressure is on. We can feel the effects of adrenaline in our stroke but I haven't seen much professional discussion of how it effects eyesight.

Since 'sports medicine' has changed sport training in many ways I am hoping there may be some insight among this group.
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Many athletes thrive under pressure and they excel, so I guess you're referring to competitors who have performance anxiety, and experience competition as a negative thing.
 
FranCrimi said:
Many athletes thrive under pressure and they excel, so I guess you're referring to competitors who have performance anxiety, and experience competition as a negative thing.
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Let's look at the 4 levels of performing tasks for a start.
1. Unconscious/incompetent...does not know what to do and can not do it.
2. Conscious/incompetent....knowns what to do but can not do it.
3. Conscious/competent....knows what to do and has to think about doing it.
4. Unconscious/competent....knows what to do and does it without thinking.

Most recommendations in the Instructors forum are at level 3. They are told what to do and have to think about doing it. Not really under much pressure. After significant practice, the student may reach level 4 where they know what to do but do not really have to think about it. Maybe like a ball 1 foot from the pocket and the cue ball 1 foot from the object ball. You do not have to think about making it.

Now a player performing at level 4, as we may call 'in stroke', is just popping balls in without thinking and almost no pressure. But now down to the game winning ball, a difficult shot and someone sharks him. The pressure is on, he goes back to level 3, adrenaline is released. He starts to think...BOOM. His muscles, mind, eyes, etc. are effected. This is how a pool player may move back to level 3. Just think the first time someone runs 99 balls. The last ball is scary.

What is the answer? I don't know. Sometimes taking your time helps and sometimes it makes it worse. What are your thoughts?
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Let's look at the 4 levels of performing tasks for a start.
1. Unconscious/incompetent...does not know what to do and can not do it.
2. Conscious/incompetent....knowns what to do but can not do it.
3. Conscious/competent....knows what to do and has to think about doing it.
4. Unconscious/competent....knows what to do and does it without thinking.

Most recommendations in the Instructors forum are at level 3. They are told what to do and have to think about doing it. Not really under much pressure. After significant practice, the student may reach level 4 where they know what to do but do not really have to think about it. Maybe like a ball 1 foot from the pocket and the cue ball 1 foot from the object ball. You do not have to think about making it.

Now a player performing at level 4, as we may call 'in stroke', is just popping balls in without thinking and almost no pressure. But now down to the game winning ball, a difficult shot and someone sharks him. The pressure is on, he goes back to level 3, adrenaline is released. He starts to think...BOOM. His muscles, mind, eyes, etc. are effected. This is how a pool player may move back to level 3. Just think the first time someone runs 99 balls. The last ball is scary.

What is the answer? I don't know. Sometimes taking your time helps and sometimes it makes it worse. What are your thoughts?
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Yes, I see what you mean and where you're coming from. Playing in the zone is a back and forth between conscious and unconscious thought. It's not all completely unconscious. The key is that these back and forth thoughts are in a particular order and length of time. When that order becomes disrupted, the player becomes distracted and loses the zone.

Disruptions can come from outside sources, like a person sharking him, or within the player's own mind, but either way, he suddenly stays in consciousness too long and disrupts the order of the zone routine.

When that happens to me, two things happen: My rhythm starts to slow down and I become more tentative and conscious (Other players will start to rush.). My fix is to find my rhythm, even if it means missing a shot or two to get it back. So be it. My body starts to recognize the rhythm and then the thought process becomes more flowing and the environment for getting back into the zone is established. Even if I don't quite make it back into the zone, I will have calmed down and fallen back into my routine.

I think the answer lies in feel rather than conscious thought to find your way back once you've lost it. I mean -- you have to be conscious, of course, but the purpose is to locate that feel that brings you back to your game rather than consciously control every bit of movement to try to find your way back. It may just be one thing, one trigger that brings you back.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
When the cue is angled for side spin, of course only the stick or the balls can look straight - but both can (and should) look straight for shots with no side spin.

And for shots with side spin, you can focus on balls or stick looking straight - either can work, depending on how you aim.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Of course a straight shot should look straight but I don't think the OP felt that it did and then you have to start with either the balls or the cue and to me a method where the eyes are aligned to the balls are way superior to one where they are aligned to the cue. I want a pot to look the same no matter what spin I'm using and how hard I play the shot. If you want to have your eyes on the cue the same way on all shots the same shot can look a million different ways depending on speed and spin. Sometimes you can see a indecisive pro go from max right to max left on a short shot and the head does not move with the cue, it stays the same while the bridge hand and grip hand moves in order to pivot the cue the desired amount I have never seen a accomplished player pivot their head with the cue..
 
Tennesseejoe said:
This is how a pool player may move back to level 3.
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Tennesseejoe said:
3. Conscious/competent....knows what to do and has to think about doing it.
4. Unconscious/competent....knows what to do and does it without thinking.
Click to expand...

Can a level 4 really move back to level 3? Doesn't that mean that they are a level 3? To me a level 4 can think about "how to do it" in practice but in a pressure situation they will not, BECAUSE they are at level 4.
 
pagaspoling said:
... If you want to have your eyes on the cue the same way on all shots the same shot can look a million different ways depending on speed and spin. ...
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Many top snooker pros keep their chin touching the cue and I believe it is always touching in the same place (for each player). Wouldn't that be "eyes on the cue the same way"?
 
Bob Jewett said:
Many top snooker pros keep their chin touching the cue and I believe it is always touching in the same place (for each player). Wouldn't that be "eyes on the cue the same way"?
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The cue ball is quiet a bit smaller and usually they are using less side spin than pool or carom players so it is hard to know. The only real way is to have a motion capture system that capture 3d data for us. I can only guess and based on my previous post I think you know what my guess would be. It's hard for me to think of any benefits that would come from having the cue aligned with the eyes the same way on every shot.

Do you think it is better to keep the eyes aligned to the cue?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's the only thing you control directly, and the one thing that must align correctly.

pj
chgo
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Perhaps most importantly for the snooker players, you can make it very consistent. I think with enough practice it is almost irrelevant to snooker players where their initial vision center is as long as every shot is played with the head the same place over the cue stick. I wonder if any snooker coaches try to find the best spot on the chin for beginning players. There's the Sight-Right snooker aiming system that is intended to position the head correctly but the testimonials come from veteran players.
 
FranCrimi said:
Yes, I see what you mean and where you're coming from. Playing in the zone is a back and forth between conscious and unconscious thought. It's not all completely unconscious. The key is that these back and forth thoughts are in a particular order and length of time. When that order becomes disrupted, the player becomes distracted and loses the zone.

Disruptions can come from outside sources, like a person sharking him, or within the player's own mind, but either way, he suddenly stays in consciousness too long and disrupts the order of the zone routine.

When that happens to me, two things happen: My rhythm starts to slow down and I become more tentative and conscious (Other players will start to rush.). My fix is to find my rhythm, even if it means missing a shot or two to get it back. So be it. My body starts to recognize the rhythm and then the thought process becomes more flowing and the environment for getting back into the zone is established. Even if I don't quite make it back into the zone, I will have calmed down and fallen back into my routine.

I think the answer lies in feel rather than conscious thought to find your way back once you've lost it. I mean -- you have to be conscious, of course, but the purpose is to locate that feel that brings you back to your game rather than consciously control every bit of movement to try to find your way back. It may just be one thing, one trigger that brings you back.
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Very good response. For me, getting back in stroke is pro-active by developing a strong reliance on maintaining the 'pre-shot routine' that stays in level 4.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Perhaps most importantly for the snooker players, you can make it very consistent. I think with enough practice it is almost irrelevant to snooker players where their initial vision center is as long as every shot is played with the head the same place over the cue stick. I wonder if any snooker coaches try to find the best spot on the chin for beginning players. There's the Sight-Right snooker aiming system that is intended to position the head correctly but the testimonials come from veteran players.
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The problem I had when I did SightRight with a certified coach was that it was very hard for me to feel confident while looking down shots because every shot looked different depending on the spin and speed I was using. It threw my of my game for many months and I still remember when I, in the middle of a match where I was struggling really bad, just thought "fuck it just aim for the ghostball" and it just clicked for me and the feeling was amazingly liberating. This is just an proof of anything but since then I been thinking a lot about visual center, aiming and alignment. I will try to explain my reasoning a bit more.

The goal of all billiard games is to manipulate the balls in the desired ways and the cue is our instrument. Since we can learn to feel how the cue will squirt and with experience can learn how the cue ball will travel on different cloths I am convinced that it is better to have the eyes aligned to the balls. This means that the same pot on different cloth always will look the same I just have to adjust how I pivot my cue to the material. If you are aligned to the cue the same shot on slow vs fast cloth will look different.

What you are trying to find if you are aligned to the cue is the correct line for the cue to travel on. This is very abstract and I found it very demanding to actively trying to compute it. If you are like me and prefer to stand behind the shot it also means that you have to move around if you change your mind on how to play the shot.

For me when you align the eyes to the cue you remove your sight one step away from the task you have, that is, to hit a ball so it hits another ball and produces a certain outcome. You then put emphasis on a secondary task that is, HOW do I align this cue so that when it hits a ball it hits another ball. I think that you make the task way to demanding, If you have one alignment for any given shot (cue ball to ghost ball) you remove a lot of uncertainty and can leave the adjustments to your unconscious mind.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You need to find that either way.

pj
chgo
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Yes but not visually in both casese, in the eye-ball case you are visually aligned to the balls and let your proprioception control the cue base on how much you going to start the ball offline and how much its coming back. In the case where you visually align yourself to the desired cueline you are often aiming away from the object ball into thin air.

Here is a diagram of the two methods on a medium long shot. The cue has 20 inch pivot point. I didn't include swerve since I thought this made my point clearly enough. In the second case, what am I supposed to align myself to? At what point in space can i confirm my aim?

EYES.png
 
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pagaspoling said:
. In the second case, what am I supposed to align myself to? At what point in space can i confirm my aim?
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For side spin shots I aim my cue a learned distance from where I’d aim it without side spin. With practice a visible target isn’t necessary to know when it’s right.

How do you confirm your aim?

oj
chgo
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
Very good response. For me, getting back in stroke is pro-active by developing a strong reliance on maintaining the 'pre-shot routine' that stays in level 4.
Click to expand...
As a suggestion, rather than consciously performing your entire pre shot routine to find your way back, you might want to consider a conscious trigger that acts as a reminder of one thing that leads you back.

Like for example, back when tennis star Stephie Graff was in her prime and she started falling off her game during a match, she knew that the first thing that went wrong was that she didn't move as much. So she created a trigger of hitting her thigh to remind herself to get her legs moving. Then everything else fell back into place.

Try to find one or two things that do that for you rather than an entire checklist of things.
 
pagaspoling said:
Can a level 4 really move back to level 3? Doesn't that mean that they are a level 3? To me a level 4 can think about "how to do it" in practice but in a pressure situation they will not, BECAUSE they are at level 4.
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Let's say in a game you are in stroke. Balls are just falling in. Then the next shot is one you have difficulty with. You may go back to a more conscious level and think about different aspects of the shot that have caused you problems.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
For side spin shots I aim my cue a learned distance from where I’d aim it without side spin. With practice a visible target isn’t necessary to know when it’s right.

How do you confirm your aim?

oj
chgo
Click to expand...

I stand behind the shot on the CB to GB path and look to find the overlap of the balls that is the correct aim. I use this path no matter what spin I'm going use. Since I always aim at the GB I will always work on hitting and predicting the CBs trajectory to the GB. I can also get feedback if the trajectory had more or less squirt/swerve than i thought. And if I hit the correct spot but miss any way I will know my GB was misplaced or maybe I got more or less throw that I thought.

When I aligned my eyes to the cue I always had a though time knowing what part of my aim was of. How do you which parameters of the invisible point you chose where off if you miss?
 
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