First time seeing my own stroke

I want to know how many world champions and top players did BCA consult before coming up with recommendation on proper mechanics. How much research was done to come up with their teaching program. Did BCA consult with British snooker organizations just to see if their methods were the same.

I'm curious about it.
 
Wolven said:
I want to know how many world champions and top players did BCA consult before coming up with recommendation on proper mechanics. How much research was done to come up with their teaching program. Did BCA consult with British snooker organizations just to see if their methods were the same.
Keynesian
I'm curious about it.
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The BCA is a Sanctioning Body. The BCA doesn't teach, it's a Trade organization.

The BCA Body of Instructors have studied under 1000's of World Champions in the fields of Physics, Geometry & Muscle groups. I bet they even went to Earl & Johnny's Pool Class........:-).

Not all BCA Instructors teach the same Stroke, same Mental or same Physiological tools.

Just what is it you are curious about?
randyg
 
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randyg said:
The BCA is a Sanctioning Body. The BCA doesn't teach, it's a Trade organization.

The BCA Body of Instructors have studied under 1000's of World Champions in the fields of Physics, Geometry & Muscle groups. I bet they even went to Earl & Johnny's Pool Class........:-).

Not all BCA Instructors teach the same Stroke, same Mental or same Physiological tools.

Just what is it you are curious about?
randyg
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Funny stuff Randy. :)
From the threads about accepted fundamentals on this forum it would seem there is one accepted way of hitting the ball and that's it.
Some guys will say there is only one stroke, etc. What it appears is that one or more people and not top notch players decided what was the right style of play. What they considered to be the easiest to teach.
I mentioned the pendulum stroke to my coach and he was laughing hard.
His comment was - ‘Why would you want to destroy your stroke, pendulum is for girls, bow and arrow like an Indian’. :)
 
Randy,
They still don't know what they don't know.
Do you remember the student I turned away from one of our schools in Charlotte? I saw him a couple of weeks ago. He is still shooting at the same level he was back then, and he still thinks he has all the answers. The only answer he didn't have was why he was still at the same level after 4 years of "self instruction".

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Randy,
They still don't know what they don't know.
Do you remember the student I turned away from one of our schools in Charlotte? I saw him a couple of weeks ago. He is still shooting at the same level he was back then, and he still thinks he has all the answers. The only answer he didn't have was why he was still at the same level after 4 years of "self instruction".

Steve
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Must be nice to be in the in crowd. ;)
 
You know what they say...you are judged by the company you keep.

I'm blessed to be in some very good company.

Steve
 
I will just throw this out there...just cause.

This is probably not "BCA" type teachings, but it is derived from teachings in the game of Golf.

The stroke (and part in question follow through)

The arm pit finish is an example of teaching (IMO) consistency of stroke. However...I personally have adapted the putting stroke to a pool stroke. This may fall on deaf ears...and that is OK.

In putting you can't have a "fixed" finish position....since puts are all different speeds and lenghts....it would be near impossible to have any feel if you always followed through to the same point past the ball.

What is typically taught is the the distance you draw the putter back will be the distance that your putter follows through past the golf ball.

I try to apply this same method to my pool stroke....my medium speed shot will not make it all the way up to my arm pit...but it does follow through "about" the same distance as I draw the cue back.

As the shot gets softer the cue is drawn back shorter and the follow through is shorter....This allows a free swinging cue and also a stroke that keeps the same relative tempo from stroke to stroke.

so....that being said...I don't have a "Fixed" position that my grip hand will end up...other than that about equal to the backstroke...

Again...probably not your run of the mill certified type of method:wink:

For the grip...I also relate to the golf grip....I have never really referred to the golf grip as "tight" or "loose"....I have always like to refer to it as how "firm" is the grip.

Reason being is that commonly among golf students....when you tell them to use a loose grip they immediately show signs of losing control of the golf club....there are certain points in the swing where the grip will become detached....Another problem is that students typically get real "whippy" with the wrist....By them trying to stay "loose" they lose control of the club.

I think the same kind of thing may happen to pool players that are thinking "keep a loose grip"....I think the wrist gets overly "whippy" and the cue is also no longer being controlled by the player.

I think the proper "firmness" of grip allows the wrist to be relaxed but maintain that bit of "springiness" in the stoke....I feel like the wrist should be similar to the face of a modern day driver....The face of modern day drivers has what is called a trampoline effect. When the golf ball is struck the face has a little bit of give that springs the ball off of the face.

In my opinion...I think the wrist should have that same effect when a good stroke is applied....

I am not sure of the instructor that made this comment about the "firmness" of grip...but I think it is perfect as it describes the right point that is not too firm...or not firm enough.

He said that if you pick up the cue with your grip hand and point it straight out about waist high....The amount of grip pressure it takes to hold the cue pointed straight out is the amount of pressure you want to maintain during a stroke.

I personally think this guy nailed it...:wink:

Take all this for what it is worth...cause I am not a BCA certifed instructor...:wink:
 
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Scott Lee said:
canwin...I'm not sure why you're so "pig-headed" about this, but I'll try to explain it to you...for the hundredth time. If ONE (not necessarily you, unless the shoe fits) is happy with how their stroke and game is, then don't try to do anything to change it. If one is NOT happy with their progression, then there are ways to improve that sense of consistency. That's what we teach. It works for lots of players. For you to say it cannot work, based on your own biased sense of reasoning...and having never experienced the instruction yourself (although you did seek me out once, to try to get a lesson when I was in Columbus one time), so you really have no knowledge to base your accusations on. Try it once...then you can try to complain about how badly it works.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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You might decide to teach what you teach and think it's the height of knowledge but you don't have the capacity to explain even the simpliest questions in detail. When you come on this board and tell people what's right and whats wrong, then I have a big disagreement with you and your company of MasterBCAtors and all the attitude that comes with it. I just wanted to show the board how shaky of ground you stand on when you can't explain yourself. And all this "they don't know what they don't know" attitude! End of discussion? You don't even know how to follow one without putting words in people's mouths that aren't even there.
Don't give yourself a pat on the back about me asking you for instruction just yet..I noticed you had someone in Columbus that you were going to "enlighten" with all this powerful stuff you claim and asked you when that was.. Let's just say I witnessed your act close up for hours all that day and you didn't even notice me.
Your teachings are rudimentary to say the least. Your personal template that you call it is just taking the persons height and arm length and conforming it to your idea of where the backhand should stop and how high to stand. Then you set up short shots in the side pocket and let them shoot the shot with high then low. Then you'd analysis if their backhand stopped where you wanted it to stop via video. You never set up any distance shots but when you did, you'd tell him to pause at the back of the stroke ala Buddy Hall/Allison Fisher. And that was basically that, other than filling up the time with alot of ego stroking(air pudding).
We just shook our heads.
I think you've just thrown together a package and have refined it as you go along. You prey mostly on people who know nothing to start with so their improvement can't be compared to anything .. I could go on but you only warrant a certain amount so you can absorb it.
You should compete and show people your techniques under pressure so people can see them in action and this goes for RandyG, Steve and all who claim to teach improvement. That's what I would do.
I'll let you win whatever argument you think is going on because it's like winning in the Special Olympics, you might win but your still retarded . .
Canwin
 
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I think monchiwai should be banned for causing such a stir. How dare him ask for feedback on his stroke. I blatant move to get the us against them factions in a frenzy.
 
canwin...Well I suspected as much. You didn't have the balls to come up and introduce yourself. You just stayed away, watched from a distance, and heard bits and pieces of what you thought was apparently b.s. Too bad you didn't get the "whole enchilada" because you missed a ton of information. For instance, you don't even know why we check people's strokes with easy shots, instead of hard ones. That one is really elementary...but I doubt that you'd get it.

There is no "only one way", or right or wrong way to do anything, and none of us have ever said there was. There are ways of simplifying the stroke process, for those people looking for that. You didn't even comment about what I said in my last post to you...which was if you like your process, don't change it. If you don't, here's ONE way (not the only way) that we know works for a lot of players. Now, if you call that acting high and mighty, arrogant, or any of the other choice terms you and others have used in this thread, then we can't help you. The truth is, like pooltcher said, you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped...and we don't forcefeed anything, even to the folks who do seek us out (as is proven over and over, by others posting here). I'm done here.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

canwin said:
You might decide to teach what you teach and think it's the height of knowledge but you don't have the capacity to explain even the simpliest questions in detail. When you come on this board and tell people what's right and whats wrong, then I have a big disagreement with you and your company of MasterBCAtors and all the attitude that comes with it. I just wanted to show the board how shaky of ground you stand on when you can't explain yourself. And all this "they don't know what they don't know" attitude! End of discussion? You don't even know how to follow one without putting words in people's mouths that aren't even there.
Don't give yourself a pat on the back about me asking you for instruction just yet..I noticed you had someone in Columbus that you were going to "enlighten" with all this powerful stuff you claim and asked you when that was.. Let's just say I witnessed your act close up for hours all that day and you didn't even notice me.
Your teachings are rudimentary to say the least. Your personal template that you call it is just taking the persons height and arm length and conforming it to your idea of where the backhand should stop and how high to stand. Then you set up short shots in the side pocket and let them shoot the shot with high then low. Then you'd analysis if their backhand stopped where you wanted it to stop via video. You never set up any distance shots but when you did, you'd tell him to pause at the back of the stroke ala Buddy Hall/Allison Fisher. And that was basically that, other than filling up the time with alot of ego stroking(air pudding).
We just shook our heads.
I think you've just thrown together a package and have refined it as you go along. You prey mostly on people who know nothing to start with so their improvement can't be compared to anything .. I could go on but you only warrant a certain amount so you can absorb it.
You should compete and show people your techniques under pressure so people can see them in action and this goes for RandyG, Steve and all who claim to teach improvement. That's what I would do.
I'll let you win whatever argument you think is going on because it's like winning in the Special Olympics, you might win but your still retarded . .
Canwin
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canwin said:
When you come on this board and tell people what's right and whats wrong, then I have a big disagreement with you and your company of MasterBCAtors and all the attitude that comes with it. I just wanted to show the board how shaky of ground you stand on when you can't explain yourself.
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This.

@pooltchr - Yes please keep your secrets to yourself rather than supporting your statements with an explanation. Keeping common knowledge to yourself is quite the move btw!

@randyg - Thank you for clarifying your criteria for why you think he's decelerating. I disagree with you and also question the validity of that video for analysis, but in all fairness it's what you were given to work with. I think your criteria looked at a symptom rather than a cause, but you *could* be onto something and had you explained it that way, I don't think anyone would have taken issue with it.
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
This.

@pooltchr - Yes please keep your secrets to yourself rather than supporting your statements with an explanation. Keeping common knowledge to yourself is quite the move btw!

.
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There are no secrets. Anyone who has ever been in my class will tell you that it's all out there for anyone who wants it. Randy, Scott, Mark, myself, and others simply try to bring it all together in one place to make the learning process easier.

If you want it, it's available. If you don't, that's entirely up to you. We don't force it on anybody, but we will offer it to anybody that is interested.

Steve
 
This might be a silly question, but has anybody who has taken the class come out shooting worse than they did before in the long run? My guess is I will hear crickets...Some people improve a lot, some people improve a little, but I highly doubt anybody in the long run shoots worse having attended the class. Some peoples' games need to be completely broken down and at first they may seem to shoot worse as when learning something new sometimes you need to take a step backwards before you take two steps forward.

A couple of things that seem to be skimmed over or maybe just ignored. These guys are offering a class for people that are not happy with their games and want to look at doing something to improve it. It isn't a cure all pill, and you will not shoot like a pro once you get back home after attending the class. They give you tools to see potentially why you missed shots but that is up to you to utilize them. The video does analysis is a great tool as it does not lie when you see yourself on it. Are there different types of strokes? Of course, as everyone is not the same physically, and everyone has their own stroke. The pendulum is just one way to shoot that they offer to teach. As Scott pointed out multiple times, if someone is happy with their game and how they shoot good for them. Don't take the class....but why ruin it for the people that are eager to try something new because they want to improve their game?

There is nothing wrong with having different interpretations of what someone is doing in a video like this one the OP submitted. Just remember both sides have opinions, and try to respect the other sides' opinions even if they are different then yours and you disagree with them.
 
pooltchr said:
There are no secrets. Anyone who has ever been in my class will tell you that it's all out there for anyone who wants it. Randy, Scott, Mark, myself, and others simply try to bring it all together in one place to make the learning process easier.

If you want it, it's available. If you don't, that's entirely up to you. We don't force it on anybody, but we will offer it to anybody that is interested.

Steve
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I'm not interested personally; my stroke is what it is. You move well to turn the question into an advertisement! Still waiting for your reasoning..
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
This.

@pooltchr - Yes please keep your secrets to yourself rather than supporting your statements with an explanation. Keeping common knowledge to yourself is quite the move btw!

@randyg - Thank you for clarifying your criteria for why you think he's decelerating. I disagree with you and also question the validity of that video for analysis, but in all fairness it's what you were given to work with. I think your criteria looked at a symptom rather than a cause, but you *could* be onto something and had you explained it that way, I don't think anyone would have taken issue with it.
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Yes, the vid was rough to say the least. I'm not really "worried" about the rest of the posters, just the original poster.

You are right, a tight grip is a cause of a de-accelerating stroke....randyg
 
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Scott Lee said:
canwin...Well I suspected as much. You didn't have the balls to come up and introduce yourself. You just stayed away, watched from a distance, and heard bits and pieces of what you thought was apparently b.s. Too bad you didn't get the "whole enchilada" because you missed a ton of information. For instance, you don't even know why we check people's strokes with easy shots, instead of hard ones. That one is really elementary...but I doubt that you'd get it.

There is no "only one way", or right or wrong way to do anything, and none of us have ever said there was. There are ways of simplifying the stroke process, for those people looking for that. You didn't even comment about what I said in my last post to you...which was if you like your process, don't change it. If you don't, here's ONE way (not the only way) that we know works for a lot of players. Now, if you call that acting high and mighty, arrogant, or any of the other choice terms you and others have used in this thread, then we can't help you. The truth is, like pooltcher said, you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped...and we don't forcefeed anything, even to the folks who do seek us out (as is proven over and over, by others posting here). I'm done here.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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You have a religious conviction that people need helped and that your a savior of some sort. I remember the days when you could be in a poolhall without some "coocoo" feeling the need to foist their opinions on others much less charge them for it. Now, that's all you see.. just another form of hustling..
You don't gamble/compete and you surely can't answer simple questions and don't half a deep understanding of what you say or you wouldn't get your feathers all ruffled/bent by even the most base inquiries. (like I did here) I didn't want to embarass you in front of everyone by having your student stand back and watch you get spanked in public and degrade your act, so consider yourself fortunate. It takes no balls to deal with a duck like you. .
My game and knowledge have gone well beyond anything your going to come close to and I didn't want to make you feel anymore inferior than you looked/acted. Me and a friend were on a table away from you! I was just curious to see the great one in real life.
All the knowledge you have, you've gleened from others, so you really aren't aware of anything original and what you have gleened is base.
I could shoot holes in your replies all day long but, again, you don't know what you try to teach soo ..
You should let people on this forum speak without interrupting them with your ad campaigns/opinions(especially when you can't be specific). Your never involved in anything except the stroke anyway.
 
canwin said:
Y
I'll let you win whatever argument you think is going on because it's like winning in the Special Olympics, you might win but your still retarded . .
Canwin
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I don't care about the arguments, but this is simply a cruel thing to say. I get the point, but it's a bad simile to refer this situation to people who were born with hardship and try their best to accomplish something.
 
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