Five Points Bowl, El Monte, Ca

[jrhendy]

Reading the posts on the Ronnie/Efren thread that mention Five Points Bowl, brings back memories. As a regular and not too smart young wannabee pool hustler, I played some kind of game with almost every player that came through there. Jay & Freddie, you didn't mention one of the best that came from Popcorn's stable, Portland Don Watson. I can see him now, shuffling around the table with a paperback in his back pocket, beating just about everyone that came through. This was before Keith's time and he was the best on the bar table I ever saw before Keith. Bakersfield Bobby, Mexican Mario and anyone else who was a bar pool champion stepped up got beat. I'm sure he booked a loser here & there because they had to sober him up before a game, and he wasn't very flashy, but he just glided around the table playing perfect position. When Joe Veasy and Alibi Al came to town, we all thought Al was the best player and all Joe could play was straight pool. That cost a few locals some $$. They would dump each other! I asked Joe how he could do that to his road partner and he said "Get busted 3,000 miles from home & see what you'd do". What a place that was from the sixties to early seventies. In that time period every player in the country came through there sooner or later. There were plenty of shortstops like myself who would get pumped up on the easy bar action, and send it in at the bowl. I could write pages about the good players that trapped me, but I wasn't a big score and could play most games a little, so I managed to stay in action most of the time. One of you mentioned Ray Booth from Florida. I played him everything - two handed & one handed. Long sessions and I just couldn't get the money. I remember playing him a game of three cushion at Verne Peterson's place, and he was grinning & cackling after we posted the $$, and I asked him what was so funny and he said "I guess you think your the only pool player who knows how to go back to the red ball"(Billiard players will understand this). I also played New York Blackie on that billiard table, and you kept score by turning the numbers on knobs under the the rail. I don't know how he did it, but Blackie could move the knobs with his knees and every time he had a shot at that end of the table, his score went up or mine went down. He beat me of course. As I look back, I was so lucky to be around in those days, playing or sweating players and characters that will never come again. The list of guys I played at Five Points includes Ervolino, Cornbread, Harry The Horse, Hawaiian Brian and many more. For what it is worth, here is my two cents on Ronnie / Efren. Efren is the best one pocket player I have ever watched play. Ronnie, in his day, is a close 2nd. If you throw in Ronnie's "Gamesmanship & Charisma" ( a nice way to put it), it might have put Efren off his game enough to get beat. John Henderson

 

[jay helfert]

Reading the posts on the Ronnie/Efren thread that mention Five Points Bowl, brings back memories. As a regular and not too smart young wannabee pool hustler, I played some kind of game with almost every player that came through there. Jay & Freddie, you didn't mention one of the best that came from Popcorn's stable, Portland Don Watson. I can see him now, shuffling around the table with a paperback in his back pocket, beating just about everyone that came through. This was before Keith's time and he was the best on the bar table I ever saw before Keith. Bakersfield Bobby, Mexican Mario and anyone else who was a bar pool champion stepped up got beat. I'm sure he booked a loser here & there because they had to sober him up before a game, and he wasn't very flashy, but he just glided around the table playing perfect position. When Joe Veasy and Alibi Al came to town, we all thought Al was the best player and all Joe could play was straight pool. That cost a few locals some $$. They would dump each other! I asked Joe how he could do that to his road partner and he said "Get busted 3,000 miles from home & see what you'd do". What a place that was from the sixties to early seventies. In that time period every player in the country came through there sooner or later. There were plenty of shortstops like myself who would get pumped up on the easy bar action, and send it in at the bowl. I could write pages about the good players that trapped me, but I wasn't a big score and could play most games a little, so I managed to stay in action most of the time. One of you mentioned Ray Booth from Florida. I played him everything - two handed & one handed. Long sessions and I just couldn't get the money. I remember playing him a game of three cushion at Verne Peterson's place, and he was grinning & cackling after we posted the $$, and I asked him what was so funny and he said "I guess you think your the only pool player who knows how to go back to the red ball"(Billiard players will understand this). I also played New York Blackie on that billiard table, and you kept score by turning the numbers on knobs under the the rail. I don't know how he did it, but Blackie could move the knobs with his knees and every time he had a shot at that end of the table, his score went up or mine went down. He beat me of course. As I look back, I was so lucky to be around in those days, playing or sweating players and characters that will never come again. The list of guys I played at Five Points includes Ervolino, Cornbread, Harry The Horse, Hawaiian Brian and many more. For what it is worth, here is my two cents on Ronnie / Efren. Efren is the best one pocket player I have ever watched play. Ronnie, in his day, is a close 2nd. If you throw in Ronnie's "Gamesmanship & Charisma" ( a nice way to put it), it might have put Efren off his game enough to get beat. John Henderson

Thanks for your two cents John. I handicap it much the same way. These guys don't know the heat Ronnie could put on someone. I'm glad you mentioned Portland Don, maybe one of the best position players ever. I loved the easy way he controlled the cue ball, a lot like Lassiter. Actually, Efren would have really appreciated both these guys.

You mentioned many good players there, but Don has to be the pick of that litter. I never saw him lose in 9-Ball and he robbed a young Richie at the Tropicana. Naturally, Popcorn brought him over there. I love that line about the paperback book in his back pocket. I remember always seeing a newspaper there too. Playing this crew made you a pretty tough player yourself. 9-7 thank you. We can bank 'em even tho.

 

[freddy the beard]

Portland Don

There might have been a few guys who could beat him, but nobody I ever saw played better position in Nineball than Don. When he arrived at the Nineball, it was so easy you could shoot it in with a chair leg. He played Nineball like Mosconi played straight-pool, hanger after hanger, or so it looked. And his stroke, his arm barely moved and the ball would fly 3 rails around the table. He had a very short little, "bip" stroke that looked like no effort was involved and he could still do anything with the cue ball. He would go into a new town and never ask anybody to play, just sit and watch and read a pocket book, or get drunk, until finally someone would choose him and of course the outcome was predictable.

the Beard

 

[freddy the beard]

Richard Popcorn Miller

Corn and I were hanging out at the legendary Rack in Detroit and he was playing somebody and this ex-fighter, sweater kept sticking his nose in the Corn's game. The guy was a real pain and he did it to everybody. He would snitch if the guy slept a ball or tell the guy to quit that he had a bad game, call fouls etc. He got away with it because of his fighter status. Corn warned him and said he would have a surprise for him the next day if he didnt stop his act. That slowed the sweater down not a step. The next day Corn came in with a long sock with a cue ball inside and he went up to the hog and bopped him over the head. It didnt stop the hog from being a pain in the ass to pool players but it did keep him away from the rest of Popcorn's games. Philly's Joel Marx eventually went outside with the guy for the same reasons.

the Beard

 

[jrhendy]

Corn and I were hanging out at the legendary Rack in Detroit and he was playing somebody and this ex-fighter, sweater kept sticking his nose in the Corn's game. The guy was a real pain and he did it to everybody. He would snitch if the guy slept a ball or tell the guy to quit that he had a bad game, call fouls etc. He got away with it because of his fighter status. Corn warned him and said he would have a surprise for him the next day if he didnt stop his act. That slowed the sweater down not a step. The next day Corn came in with a long sock with a cue ball inside and he went up to the hog and bopped him over the head. It didnt stop the hog from being a pain in the ass to pool players but it did keep him away from the rest of Popcorn's games. Philly's Joel Marx eventually went outside with the guy for the same reasons.

the Beard

I saw Popcorn go after Tom Armstrong with the file they kept on the desk to shape tips at Verne Peterson's room. Tom didn't get hurt cause the Corn was pretty drunk, but he could be dangerous. I wouldn't play him for a long time because he had that long loose stroke with his head up high and he always looked like he was stalling. He also wanted to bet a little high for me at that time, but when we finally palyed & I figured out I could beat him, he pretty much left me alone. Armstrong was from Detroit & I'm sure you remember him. John Henderson

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Five Points Bowl

Reading the posts on the Ronnie/Efren thread that mention Five Points Bowl, brings back memories. As a regular and not too smart young wannabee pool hustler, I played some kind of game with almost every player that came through there. Jay & Freddie, you didn't mention one of the best that came from Popcorn's stable, Portland Don Watson. I can see him now, shuffling around the table with a paperback in his back pocket, beating just about everyone that came through. This was before Keith's time and he was the best on the bar table I ever saw before Keith. Bakersfield Bobby, Mexican Mario and anyone else who was a bar pool champion stepped up got beat. I'm sure he booked a loser here & there because they had to sober him up before a game, and he wasn't very flashy, but he just glided around the table playing perfect position. When Joe Veasy and Alibi Al came to town, we all thought Al was the best player and all Joe could play was straight pool. That cost a few locals some $$. They would dump each other! I asked Joe how he could do that to his road partner and he said "Get busted 3,000 miles from home & see what you'd do". What a place that was from the sixties to early seventies. In that time period every player in the country came through there sooner or later. There were plenty of shortstops like myself who would get pumped up on the easy bar action, and send it in at the bowl. I could write pages about the good players that trapped me, but I wasn't a big score and could play most games a little, so I managed to stay in action most of the time. One of you mentioned Ray Booth from Florida. I played him everything - two handed & one handed. Long sessions and I just couldn't get the money. I remember playing him a game of three cushion at Verne Peterson's place, and he was grinning & cackling after we posted the $$, and I asked him what was so funny and he said "I guess you think your the only pool player who knows how to go back to the red ball"(Billiard players will understand this). I also played New York Blackie on that billiard table, and you kept score by turning the numbers on knobs under the the rail. I don't know how he did it, but Blackie could move the knobs with his knees and every time he had a shot at that end of the table, his score went up or mine went down. He beat me of course. As I look back, I was so lucky to be around in those days, playing or sweating players and characters that will never come again. The list of guys I played at Five Points includes Ervolino, Cornbread, Harry The Horse, Hawaiian Brian and many more. For what it is worth, here is my two cents on Ronnie / Efren. Efren is the best one pocket player I have ever watched play. Ronnie, in his day, is a close 2nd. If you throw in Ronnie's "Gamesmanship & Charisma" ( a nice way to put it), it might have put Efren off his game enough to get beat. John Henderson

I am of course too young to have been a part of this, but I had never even heard of the Five Points in El Monte, Ca until conversation I had a couple weeks ago with Frank the Barber. He certainly felt that during that era and at that pool room, it was the best action he had ever seen.

 

[jay helfert]

Corn and I were hanging out at the legendary Rack in Detroit and he was playing somebody and this ex-fighter, sweater kept sticking his nose in the Corn's game. The guy was a real pain and he did it to everybody. He would snitch if the guy slept a ball or tell the guy to quit that he had a bad game, call fouls etc. He got away with it because of his fighter status. Corn warned him and said he would have a surprise for him the next day if he didnt stop his act. That slowed the sweater down not a step. The next day Corn came in with a long sock with a cue ball inside and he went up to the hog and bopped him over the head. It didnt stop the hog from being a pain in the ass to pool players but it did keep him away from the rest of Popcorn's games. Philly's Joel Marx eventually went outside with the guy for the same reasons.

the Beard

Got ya, finally. JOHN "Popcorn" Miller

 

[jay helfert]

I saw Popcorn go after Tom Armstrong with the file they kept on the desk to shape tips at Verne Peterson's room. Tom didn't get hurt cause the Corn was pretty drunk, but he could be dangerous. I wouldn't play him for a long time because he had that long loose stroke with his head up high and he always looked like he was stalling. He also wanted to bet a little high for me at that time, but when we finally palyed & I figured out I could beat him, he pretty much left me alone. Armstrong was from Detroit & I'm sure you remember him. John Henderson

I heard that Tommy died in Texas last year. He was doing swap meets down there. Popcorn had an arsenal of weapons he kept around, including large caliber pistolas.

I also played him One Pocket and Banks on several occasions. Shortly after taking Tullos to Five Points, Corn invited me back to play him some $20 One Hole. So I go back out there thinking everything was cool. By myself.
He is there and we begin to play.

A few balls into the first game, the lights all go out. Like a blackout, the poolroom is totally dark. Next thing I know I am getting pounded on from three different directions. Hit and kicked. I begin to fight back, scratching and clawing and even biting arms and legs. I am like a trapped animal fighting for survival. And then it all stops. And the lights come back on.

Everyone is lined up against the wall, looking at me. I'm a mess, ripped clothes, bloody, beat up. But I look against the wall and a few of them are also a mess with bloody clothing that is ripped and torn. No one says anything to me. I pick up my cue and put it in case and walk out.

And that was it, my payback for bringing Frank out there and busting them.
Years later I saw Popcorn and asked him about it. His response was a shake of the head and "Those things happen in pool rooms". That's all he said. With a little half smile. Sadistic son of a *****.

Yes pool hustling can be hazardous to your health.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

"Five Points Bowl, El Monte, Ca" Man, you're really bringing back some memories!! Remember the little Canary Yellow 32 Ford Five window coupe that used to hang out at Stans drive-in across the street? The one with the georgeous blonde riding shotgun? That be me

Sold the Deuce coupe and broke up with the blonde! Man I miss that car!!!!

 

[jrhendy]

Frank The Barber

I am of course too young to have been a part of this, but I had never even heard of the Five Points in El Monte, Ca until conversation I had a couple weeks ago with Frank the Barber. He certainly felt that during that era and at that pool room, it was the best action he had ever seen.

Frank is an old friend and competitor and we played in many a tournament together and partied quite a bit too. Might be the only guy on the West Coast that is my age and worked for a living that is a better all around player than me. I sold Frank my Tad cue that used to belong to Bob "Black Bart" Ogburn to give to his son for his birthday. Wish I had it today. Say hello to Frank for me. John Henderson

 

[jrhendy]

Hazardous To Your Health

I heard that Tommy died in Texas last year. He was doing swap meets down there. Popcorn had an arsenal of weapons he kept around, including large caliber pistolas.

I also played him One Pocket and Banks on several occasions. Shortly after taking Tullos to Five Points, Corn invited me back to play him some $20 One Hole. So I go back out there thinking everything was cool. By myself.
He is there and we begin to play.

A few balls into the first game, the lights all go out. Like a blackout, the poolroom is totally dark. Next thing I know I am getting pounded on from three different directions. Hit and kicked. I begin to fight back, scratching and clawing and even biting arms and legs. I am like a trapped animal fighting for survival. And then it all stops. And the lights come back on.

Everyone is lined up against the wall, looking at me. I'm a mess, ripped clothes, bloody, beat up. But I look against the wall and a few of them are also a mess with bloody clothing that is ripped and torn. No one says anything to me. I pick up my cue and put it in case and walk out.

And that was it, my payback for bringing Frank out there and busting them.
Years later I saw Popcorn and asked him about it. His response was a shake of the head and "Those things happen in pool rooms". That's all he said. With a little half smile. Sadistic son of a *****.

Yes pool hustling can be hazardous to your health.

Tommy and I made a couple of small scores together, but he put me in a couple of spots that could have been bad. We went out to Riverside to play this black guy who was a pimp. He was supposed to be an ex NFL player & looked like it. I must have started acting funny after he pulled up, and he said "Don't worry, your going to get away with the money, the girls are just going to work a little harder tonight". Sorry to hear about Tommy's passing. Last time I saw him he was selling bug zappers & stuff at swap meets out here. John Henderson

 

[jay helfert]

Tommy and I made a couple of small scores together, but he put me in a couple of spots that could have been bad. We went out to Riverside to play this black guy who was a pimp. He was supposed to be an ex NFL player & looked like it. I must have started acting funny after he pulled up, and he said "Don't worry, your going to get away with the money, the girls are just going to work a little harder tonight". Sorry to hear about Tommy's passing. Last time I saw him he was selling bug zappers & stuff at swap meets out here. John Henderson

Johhny Boy,
Frank Tullos was originally from Cincinnati, Ohio. A jam up 14.1 player who could run hundreds. He has owned a string of pool rooms in the Carolinas for years and has been successful in Senior Tour events. Yes, he always worked and has a college education, unlike some lowlifes like me.

 

[trainer]

u guys are having too much fun!!

Johhny Boy,
Frank Tullos was originally from Cincinnati, Ohio. A jam up 14.1 player who could run hundreds. He has owned a string of pool rooms in the Carolinas for years and has been successful in Senior Tour events. Yes, he always worked and has a college education, unlike some lowlifes like me.

I hate L.A. always have,one of my 1st trips down south i hit all the joints you've been talking about..Me,Danny Fitzsimmons,and STRAIGHT SHOOTIN Bruce Norris(not the martial arts guy)made a weekend journey to beautifull southern fricken California..We got beat everwhere we went..Oh,I forgot we had Billy the Coat(Billy Arguero) rideing shotgun..We lost at Marina billiards.Got STEERED to 5 points..Did i mention we LOST? There had to be 10 players in there at 4 in the morning that none of us could beat with the 7 out!!!!!!!!! Cotton ,Popcorn,Portland Don,International Al(formerely Alibi),and a slew of others i can't recall..After pounding on us for most of that weekend they showed some compassion,and steered us to Eagle Rock near Pasadena..We finally feasted on a bunch of newbees-got all of our money back including a like-new TAD (which i kept for the next 5 years) and got the hell out of Dodge!!!
Terry Osborne

 

[jay helfert]

I hate L.A. always have,one of my 1st trips down south i hit all the joints you've been talking about..Me,Danny Fitzsimmons,and STRAIGHT SHOOTIN Bruce Norris(not the martial arts guy)made a weekend journey to beautifull southern fricken California..We got beat everwhere we went..Oh,I forgot we had Billy the Coat(Billy Arguero) rideing shotgun..We lost at Marina billiards.Got STEERED to 5 points..Did i mention we LOST? There had to be 10 players in there at 4 in the morning that none of us could beat with the 7 out!!!!!!!!! Cotton ,Popcorn,Portland Don,International Al(formerely Alibi),and a slew of others i can't recall..After pounding on us for most of that weekend they showed some compassion,and steered us to Eagle Rock near Pasadena..We finally feasted on a bunch of newbees-got all of our money back including a like-new TAD (which i kept for the next 5 years) and got the hell out of Dodge!!!
Terry Osborne

Hi Terry. You picked all the right (wrong) spots. Marina Billiards was run by Lou Butera and was the hangout for Jimmy Marino, Jimmy Reid, Richie, Jack Cooney and Ronnie among others. Tough tough action. And Five Points we have talked about. You must have also visited The Billiard Palace in Bellflower, home to Keith, Denny, Harry The Horse and a few other Godzillas.

Those were the spots to AVOID when visiting L.A. in the 60's and 70's. You could have always come to my room, Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood and played a little with Marvin, Ed Kelly, Pancho, Jimmy Reid (he was here a lot too), Richie Ambrose, NY Blackie or the right handed Cecil.

Yeah, the action in L.A. was a piece of cake back then.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Say hello to Frank for me. John Henderson

Will do!...................

 

[freddy the beard]

What about me?

Hi Terry. You picked all the right (wrong) spots. Marina Billiards was run by Lou Butera and was the hangout for Jimmy Marino, Jimmy Reid, Richie, Jack Cooney and Ronnie among others. Tough tough action. And Five Points we have talked about. You must have also visited The Billiard Palace in Bellflower, home to Keith, Denny, Harry The Horse and a few other Godzillas.

Those were the spots to AVOID when visiting L.A. in the 60's and 70's. You could have always come to my room, Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood and played a little with Marvin, Ed Kelly, Pancho, Jimmy Reid (he was here a lot too), Richie Ambrose, NY Blackie or the right handed Cecil.

Jay, did you forget that me, Augie Catarella and Little Frankie from Jersey City hung out at the "Den" also? Another place to avoid was Daisy Mae's bar in Santa Ana, home of the best bar pool players in the world.

the Beard

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, did you forget that me, Augie Catarella and Little Frankie from Jersey City hung out at the "Den" also? Another place to avoid was Daisy Mae's bar in Santa Ana, home of the best bar pool players in the world.

the Beard

You took the words out of my mouth. I realized I neglected to mention Daisy Maes, the roughest bar table joint ever. All the Mexican champions hung there, including Big Sergio, Mario, Little Al, Tracy Joe and Al Nicaraugua. They reigned supreme over all the big table champions, although I saw Harry The Horse demolish them all one night.

And then Keith came along and bar-b-qued everyone. He was giving the 8 to all these world champions. His first nickname was courtesy of the Mexican contingent. To them Keith was "El Diablo" The Devil. I watched a 19 year old Keith thoroughly demoralize Tracy Joe Salazar (with the 8) so badly that he quit pool for a long time.

We made a big score there off Charlie The Ape. Young Navy Gary (Gary Serville) went down there with me and gave Charlie the 8 and won all his drug money, plus his car. Charlie got a little wild at the end and picked up the bar table with one hand. Scary. I don't think the .25 I had in my pocket would have put a dent in him. But I had made up my mind that no matter what we were not giving back the money. And we didn't, winning over 4K, very big money in the 60's.

Of course I remember when you and Augie and Frankie were guests of the Billiard Den. You could run then, and sometimes you had to. Frankie was like 15 and it took a top player to handle him (I had first seen him in Guys And Dolls when he was 13). Augie played a very high Shortstop speed and you scuffed around and quietly made more scores than the two of them put together. You were more of a bottom feeder like me.

I figured out early on, it was easier to give weight to a non player than to try to butt heads with the players. Worked for me. I spotted a lot of the crowd in there games like 8 to 4 and 10 to 5 One Pocket, but they had no chance, mainly because they couldn't play. i used to give Jimmy Caan the 7 and Jack Ackerman the 8 and the break.

Do you rmember when I took you and Augie to Charlie Neals, the black joint where Iceman, Black Nate, Rush Out Red and California Shorty hung out. These were serious players. Augie was shaking a little as I remember, but you jumped up and played Ice some Banks. Pretty soon the whole crowd down there loved you. I think you broke even with him and he could really play.

I have pretty good long term memory. Just don't ask me what I did yesterday.

 

[Jimmy M.]

You took the words out of my mouth. I realized I neglected to mention Daisy Maes, the roughest bar table joint ever. All the Mexican champions hung there, including Big Sergio, Mario, Little Al, Tracy Joe and Al Nicaraugua.

Unless I'm mistaken, Pepe hung out there as well from time to time. At least, I know I have heard him talk about the place.

 

[jay helfert]

Unless I'm mistaken, Pepe hung out there as well from time to time. At least, I know I have heard him talk about the place.

Sorry Jimmy. Yes, your Daddio was in there from time to time as was Oscar and Lavita. Your Dad was pretty careful, and picked his spots well (guys like me). Most people had no idea how good he played, until it was too late. I played him on the bar table and had no chance and then we switched to the big table and played 9-Ball (boo) and finally One Pocket (boo again). After all that, he wouldn't play me Banks. After robbing me, he told me I was too good. I told you he was a smart hustler.

Sergio and Mario generally took on the big guns, like Danny D, Jimmy Reid,
Jimmy Marino, Larry Lisciotti and Mike Massey. Those guys couldn't get their on the bar boxes.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Sorry Jimmy. Yes, your Daddio was in there from time to time as was Oscar and Lavita. Your Dad was pretty careful, and picked his spots well (guys like me). Most people had no idea how good he played, until it was too late. I played him on the bar table and had no chance and then we switched to the big table and played 9-Ball (boo) and finally One Pocket (boo again). After all that, he wouldn't play me Banks. After robbing me, he told me I was too good. I told you he was a smart hustler.

Sergio and Mario generally took on the big guns, like Danny D, Jimmy Reid,
Jimmy Marino, Larry Lisciotti and Mike Massey. Those guys couldn't get their on the bar boxes.

He told me a story about him playing Billy Ray Suden (sp). Apparently, Billy had come into the pool room wearing sun glasses and asked him to play. So Pepe went on to tell him that he's a cripple! He has to wear these glasses! Then he said he'd play if Billy Ray wore his sun glasses to make it even. So the story goes that Billy Ray got beat up on trying to play with his sunglasses on. However, it was pretty funny because Billy Ray was just in town recently and remembered me and told me this story about when he played Pepe wearing sunglasses. Only, in Billy Ray's story, he won the dough.