Fixing a finish

F

folkar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a custom that was made in 1995 by Mike Singer of Minnesota. From what I understand, he no longer makes cues. The finish on both the shaft and the butt around the joint ringwork seems to have lifted. I know the obvious answer if I want to fix this would be to have the cue refinished. However I don't want to lose the signature next to the points. Any other ideas?

I know a picture is worth a thousand words, i'll take a picture and post them after leagues tonight or tomorrow after work.
 
Refinish

Just have it refinished but tell who ever does it that you want to salvage the signature. All they need to do is not sand too much off around the signature. A little more work but it is doable.
 
folkar said:
I have a custom that was made in 1995 by Mike Singer of Minnesota. From what I understand, he no longer makes cues. The finish on both the shaft and the butt around the joint ringwork seems to have lifted. I know the obvious answer if I want to fix this would be to have the cue refinished. However I don't want to lose the signature next to the points. Any other ideas?

I know a picture is worth a thousand words, i'll take a picture and post them after leagues tonight or tomorrow after work.
Click to expand...

Someone else posted a question similar to this, recently. I can tell you of my experiences. If the finish is cracking & lifting where the rings meet, it will probably happen again, even if it is refinished. I believe the glue has failed between the rings & the flexing of the cue will crack in the same place. Don't waist your good money on a poorly glued cue...JER
 
I'm not totally in agreement with you on this one Jer.
I'm not sold on the idea of the glue failing.
The joint area of a cue is a flex point. Bare in mind that most joint tenons are 5/8" and are being asked to endure all the impact, flex, etc. that the cue will ever be subjected to. Yes, the joint area is a flex point. The pin tends to stiffen it but it still flexes. Ex : look at some of the earlier Meuccis & McDs. Right at the edge of where the shaft meets the joint collar, many of those cues show the finish lifting. This is because as the joint flexes, the finish is put into shear from it's opposing face and lifts from the surface.
In the case of the OP's cue, which we don't yet have a pic of, it could simply be a matter of where the bottom of the pin is, relative to the ring-work. This is totally a guess but one of the possibilities I'm envisioning. Anyway.....

I'd say that the age of the finish is as much to be suspect as anything else. Cues are MEANT to flex. As the finish ages, it gets harder and stiffer and really less willing to flex with the cue. Finishes today are maybe a little better than they were 14 yrs. ago but I guess we'll have to wait another 14 yrs. to see how our current finishes are holding up. Anyway.....

If this cue is a daily player then it's a 'pickem'. If you have the joint area spot-finished, it will look perfect but will look out of place to the rest of the cue. If you go for a total refinish, in time, it will eventually look like it does now. Pickem.....
 
removing original finish

KJ cues,

How do you remove finish off of a cue? What do you use to dissolve the original finish? Thx
 
KJ Cues said:
I'm not totally in agreement with you on this one Jer.
I'm not sold on the idea of the glue failing.
The joint area of a cue is a flex point. Bare in mind that most joint tenons are 5/8" and are being asked to endure all the impact, flex, etc. that the cue will ever be subjected to. Yes, the joint area is a flex point. The pin tends to stiffen it but it still flexes. Ex : look at some of the earlier Meuccis & McDs. Right at the edge of where the shaft meets the joint collar, many of those cues show the finish lifting. This is because as the joint flexes, the finish is put into shear from it's opposing face and lifts from the surface.
In the case of the OP's cue, which we don't yet have a pic of, it could simply be a matter of where the bottom of the pin is, relative to the ring-work. This is totally a guess but one of the possibilities I'm envisioning. Anyway.....

I'd say that the age of the finish is as much to be suspect as anything else. Cues are MEANT to flex. As the finish ages, it gets harder and stiffer and really less willing to flex with the cue. Finishes today are maybe a little better than they were 14 yrs. ago but I guess we'll have to wait another 14 yrs. to see how our current finishes are holding up. Anyway.....

If this cue is a daily player then it's a 'pickem'. If you have the joint area spot-finished, it will look perfect but will look out of place to the rest of the cue. If you go for a total refinish, in time, it will eventually look like it does now. Pickem.....
Click to expand...

Hi KJ; He says that the finish is cracking & lifting around the RINGWORK of both the shaft & butt. I experimented with all kinds of glues, when I 1st started & one of my 1st really nice cues had the finish crack & lift at the ringwork. I sanded it down, refinished it & whithin a few months it cracked at the same places. I refinished it a 2nd time & layed the clearcoat on heavier. Again it cracked & lifted. I turned the joint collar off of the shaft & the rings spun off with little effort. The glue had failed. I replaced ALL of the rings & reglued with my pressent epoxy & 19 years latter I still have that cue...JER
 
too many high end,well made cues out there with finish lifting at the rings to be a construction problem.i will say that the wood changing in size (seasoned or not the climate changes will do it) in those areas and the stability of the phenolic seem to cause lifting.

also any variance in diameter of rings,wood or whatever in that area when the cue is final sanded will cause it.
 
canwin said:
KJ cues,

How do you remove finish off of a cue? What do you use to dissolve the original finish? Thx
Click to expand...

canwin,

I'm in agreement with Jer on this one, sanding to remove finish.
Consider that whatever chemical is strong enough to 'break-down' a cured finish is also capable of doing nasty things to the surface of the cue underneath the finish, be it wood, plastic, or whatever.
Sanding may take a little longer but doing it right generally does.
Anymore, I'm not in a big hurry and certainly not scared of sand-paper.

As far as the OP's finish problems, I'm going to reserve further comment until I at least see a pic. No sense in trying to guess the age of a horse that's still in the barn.
 
I hope to take pics tonight, its not something that i've urgently been tryint to fix, but since the maker stopped making cues a while ago (as far as I can tell) this lets me relax about trying to get ahold of him to be involved in a re-finish to replicate the signature.
 
Get a kick out of this one. I've got a good friend who recently started making a few cues, real maticulas man who does good work and really takes his time to do it right. He makes a handmade butterfly splice with ebony and purpleheart. Says the ebony keeps shrinking smaller than the purpleheart which doesn't make sense to me, but Randy isn't a BSer and I believe him. Told him to seal with finish epoxy and wait to see if shrinking issue is resolved before clear coating. Any opinions.
 
Took me a little longer than I planned to get pictures taken and posted, but here they are. The shaft is the worst, then the collar at the joint.

SingerButtCollar.jpg


SingerShaftCollar.jpg
 
jtrombetta said:
Get a kick out of this one. I've got a good friend who recently started making a few cues, real maticulas man who does good work and really takes his time to do it right. He makes a handmade butterfly splice with ebony and purpleheart. Says the ebony keeps shrinking smaller than the purpleheart which doesn't make sense to me, but Randy isn't a BSer and I believe him. Told him to seal with finish epoxy and wait to see if shrinking issue is resolved before clear coating. Any opinions.
Click to expand...

The ebony needed more seasoning...it lost more moisture after finishing than the PH, making it shrink more.

Kelly
 
Its hard to tell if the black material is phenolic or some sort of plastic but I would venture my guess to be that it was sanded too smooth and any quick change in temp may have caused it to lift.

This is one of the biggest problems I get asked of new cue makers. They sand everything down to 600 grit and expect finish to stick. It may bite into the wood, but other materials are a totally different ball game.

<~~just a guess, I guess....
 
Appears the cue was not sealed properly before clearcoat was applied , if not sealed right the finish will not bond to cue , just lay on top , result is what you see:cool: ... Seen it many times ... Sand off and seal , reapply clearcoat , or do a CA finish ... No brainer ...
 
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