Flat face to Pilot?
- Thread starter CavinTan
- Start date
First, I assume you mean 'convert' , not convery, Second, the pilot is only to align the shaft to the butt more consistently, it offers No other reason to exist. My Question is Why do you want a pilot? It will not affect performance or increase shooting ability at all.
It can be done with replacing the insert if the butt already has a recess for the pilot, if not then it will require removing the pin, then boring it then replacing the pin. But just so you know, there isn't any real reason to do so.
If your reason for asking is because you have a shaft that has a pilot and want to use it on the butt that doesn't allow for it, just have a repair guy machine the pilot off the shaft, and all will be well.
HTHs,
Dave
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If after cutting the pilot off the shaft the butt and shaft together do not roll straight, then the facing of the two joints is off. If done correctly, there is no reason this setup should not roll as straight as it did before removing the pilot from the shaft.
Alan
Phelps Custom Cues
If the pilot was still on the shaft, and you put it on a flat faced butt, it won't roll straight, the pilot needs to be removed and possibly reface the butt. The shaft will already get refaced when the pilot is removed. HTH,
Dave
I had a flat faced Jacoby butt a few years ago
Also had a half dozen or so ld piloted shafts
I chucked up the butt and used a1/8 hss tool bit to cut a small pilot hole around the pin
It worked ok for me , but those ld shafts dont have much of a pilot to begin with
Also had a half dozen or so ld piloted shafts
I chucked up the butt and used a1/8 hss tool bit to cut a small pilot hole around the pin
It worked ok for me , but those ld shafts dont have much of a pilot to begin with
I have made many shafts for a piloted joint and I made every one of them with a flat face........ it works just fine. Most piloted joints serve no purpose.
Kim
have done this before for people....or enlarged a pilot to fit other shafts as well.
like Kim said tho, regardless if all the work is done right, pilot of not it sould still be straight.
the pilot is just another alignment thing, you could build it for compression ans such but its just another guard to keep the shaft and butt straight....
a pin could be off just a hair, or even the insert and if the pilot and faces are correct then the shaft (depending to a degree) will be straight when fully tightened down.....straight pin and crooked faces, you can tighten up all you want and its gonna be crooked as hell like you can shoot around a corner lol
did you do this per customer request or you just dont do piloted shafts?
ill agree there are pilots just built for looks, but if i have a piloted cue, and i ask you to build me a new shaft....its gonna be piloted....even if you charge more....thats still what i'd be paying for regardless..
as an example....i'm not building a shaft for myself for my cue, sans pilot.....usless its because its just some test shaft or something as such.
i just dont like things modified like that....if it was built to fit that way....even a cheap ass customer should just say "hell ill spend the extra 25 or whatever so it fits the same dam way"
this probably is also why i dont like cheap people....
regardless of any of us would want to say a pilot does or doesn't,having a shaft with no pilot on a pilot butt is hackery....not saying you or i or anyone is doing hack work.....its just BS is all.
Because i know its there....wether i see it or not lol...i'm not even talking math or any science...just from a personal design aspect.
but i guess after a man buys a cue he could turn it into a papertowel roll holder...its his to do with as he/she pleases.
and as for if you can cut a pilot into a shaft with a collar......the real general answer is YES.....you will lose collar material and the shaft will once piloted, shorten the cue the length of the depth of the cut/channel on the butts joint.
so if you had a 58" cue....and the ss joint had a 3/16" deep pilot.....and your shaft had a black phenolic ring 1/2" long.....the cue would now be 57 13/16" the shaft would be 28 13/16 from the flatface. The joint collar would now be 13/16" thick as to what you would see when the cue is put together.
no matter what you do to add the pilot, short of drilling and plugging so you have a new tennon, redrilling boring, insert and cutting the faces and shoulder on new tennon your going to lose length....
To answer you quickly........... if I get a request for a new shaft for a piloted joint.... I tell the customer that I will make a flat faced shaft. All have said "OK" and no one has had any complaints...............
I have measured some piloted joints and the clearance between the pilot and the recess is large enough that the pilot does not touch anything.........
Kim
so you dont make piloted shafts then is what your saying? like at all?
just because some pilots dont match their recess doesn't mean that piloted shafts are not good or functional....at least to me thats what it sounds like your saying which is just circular logic.
It would be like saying the same thing that oh i wouldn't use a 5/16x14 pin becuse I saw one once that was inserted crooked into a non concentric hole....or even a 3/8x10....whatever...
i just dont get why if thats what your saying. Unless you can only get a hundred for the shafts lol.....its just a longer tennon basically, its not like it would take longer than a "30 dowel......
i'm not judging, all those are questions buddy....and i'm sure you have good reason...thats what i'm asking.
so you dont make piloted shafts then is what your saying? like at all?
just because some pilots dont match their recess doesn't mean that piloted shafts are not good or functional....at least to me thats what it sounds like your saying which is just circular logic.
It would be like saying the same thing that oh i wouldn't use a 5/16x14 pin becuse I saw one once that was inserted crooked into a non concentric hole....or even a 3/8x10....whatever...
i just dont get why if thats what your saying. Unless you can only get a hundred for the shafts lol.....its just a longer tennon basically, its not like it would take longer than a "30 dowel......
i'm not judging, all those are questions buddy....and i'm sure you have good reason...thats what i'm asking.
My personal opinion................
A piloted shaft serves no purpose and does not result in any value added. A square and flat faced joint is just fine.
If a pilot on the shaft was necessary and made the joint better, everyone would be using them.
Kim
The need of a pilot has expired. Contemporary pin technology and tolerance have evolved.
The greater the FLAT-faced surface area, the better the transfer of energy across the jnt.
The pilot does not improve this, it stifles it. Continued use of a pilot is traditional.
Case in point.
Most of today's 'pilots' are nothing more than the insert protruding from the face of the shaft.
It makes contact with NOTHING and denies the FLAT-faced contact area that the pilot needlessly occupies.
Somewhat related, it's been argued that the sidewall contact of the pilot to the interior wall of the
jnt-collar more than makes-up for the lost FLAT-faced contact area. PURE RUBBISH.
Shock/resonance waves travel in a straight line. They don't make right & left hand turns jumping a pilot.
Where the pilot ends is where that amount of wave ends.
Back when the pilot was thought to be needed, it almost made sense except that it was a patch for the real problem;
ill-fitting pins. We've put men on the moon since then and are now even making better fitting pins.
The greater the FLAT-faced surface area, the better the transfer of energy across the jnt.
The pilot does not improve this, it stifles it. Continued use of a pilot is traditional.
Case in point.
Most of today's 'pilots' are nothing more than the insert protruding from the face of the shaft.
It makes contact with NOTHING and denies the FLAT-faced contact area that the pilot needlessly occupies.
Somewhat related, it's been argued that the sidewall contact of the pilot to the interior wall of the
jnt-collar more than makes-up for the lost FLAT-faced contact area. PURE RUBBISH.
Shock/resonance waves travel in a straight line. They don't make right & left hand turns jumping a pilot.
Where the pilot ends is where that amount of wave ends.
Back when the pilot was thought to be needed, it almost made sense except that it was a patch for the real problem;
ill-fitting pins. We've put men on the moon since then and are now even making better fitting pins.
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Couldn't have said it better, even with a couple days headstart....would give greenies, but need to spread it a bit more.
Dave
many cues i see have runout in pins....some very expensive cues even before. Some cues i've owned myself have less runout with 5/16x14 than cues with 3/8x10 have had and the 5/16x14 is 40 years old or more.
as an example no ones complaining about the legendary SW taper roll...well i mean the few complaints are not hurting their bottom line, as well i dont think it should.
as well i also agree with someone like say Searings choices of taking all that time to build a cue, a long SLOW enduring process. Brutal stuff. I partake and many of us all partake in processes similar...hell some of my own cues for my self i've been doing little odds and ends on for years....and then i'll whip out a duck call and a cue for someone in a few months.....
no matter my point is that searings dont hit good to everyone, your cues wont...neither will mine. Weve all seen pins with and without runout play lights out bar none.
myself i'm not sure if ill ever only do one pin....nope that will never happen. For a particualr style of cue, yes that could and is basically true, but i'm not against putting a pilot on a 3/8x10 or 3/8x11....as i think some other illustrious member here said....
"why not?"
becasue we can do the tape thing and take run out pins of all shapes and joints of all same....of solidly built cues.....and the gamut consus would be....
grey data___________________________________
-Greyghost
Oh some pilots fit....just a little at least. Not everything is always about function. Form matters to some. It's a nice show of craftsmanship and some like the look some like the hit too. Meh
so
whats
your
point:thumbup:
as an example no ones complaining about the legendary SW taper roll...well i mean the few complaints are not hurting their bottom line, as well i dont think it should.
as well i also agree with someone like say Searings choices of taking all that time to build a cue, a long SLOW enduring process. Brutal stuff. I partake and many of us all partake in processes similar...hell some of my own cues for my self i've been doing little odds and ends on for years....and then i'll whip out a duck call and a cue for someone in a few months.....
no matter my point is that searings dont hit good to everyone, your cues wont...neither will mine. Weve all seen pins with and without runout play lights out bar none.
myself i'm not sure if ill ever only do one pin....nope that will never happen. For a particualr style of cue, yes that could and is basically true, but i'm not against putting a pilot on a 3/8x10 or 3/8x11....as i think some other illustrious member here said....
"why not?"
becasue we can do the tape thing and take run out pins of all shapes and joints of all same....of solidly built cues.....and the gamut consus would be....
grey data___________________________________
-Greyghost
Oh some pilots fit....just a little at least. Not everything is always about function. Form matters to some. It's a nice show of craftsmanship and some like the look some like the hit too. Meh
so
whats
your
point:thumbup:
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