Flat face to Pilot?

[JoeyInCali]

Just a challenge for those that repair cues.............. check every cue you come across and chuck it up and check the 5/16-18 or 14 pins for runout.................

I have never seen one that is straight...........


Kim...

If you chuck it up, how do you measure straightness?
Most of these 5/16 screws have no unthreaded pilots.
The new ones have pilot, center hole and alignment barrel.
They can be installed just as straight as the big screws.

Someone sent me a Tad shaft for re-taper once.
It was 2 decades old and it turned perfectly from the insert.
I just taped the joint collar to the drive end and took a pass between centers.

There are still a few A-list makers using piloted joints.
Including Lambros who use 3/8 10 with a pilot.

 

[skins]

Shock/resonance waves travel in a straight line. They don't make right & left hand turns jumping a pilot.
Where the pilot ends is where that amount of wave ends.

What about if the sides of the shaft tongue are compressed against the inner wall of the pilot hole?

 

[KJ Cues]

Still dead area - Cul de sac.

 

[skins]

Still dead area - Cul de sac.

So that "Cul de sac" makes for LESS vibration transfer and ultimately NO positive effect on a cues "hit"?

If that's the case I wonder why all the piloted cues I own/owned play as good or better than the flat faces I own/owned?

Ya think maybe it has more to do with who built the cue?

I think so.....

 

[KJ Cues]

Who am I to argue what you choose to believe.

 

[JoeyInCali]

So that "Cul de sac" makes for LESS vibration transfer and ultimately NO positive effect on a cues "hit"?

If that's the case I wonder why all the piloted cues I own/owned play as good or better than the flat faces I own/owned?

Ya think maybe it has more to do with who built the cue?

I think so.....

Not all piloted SS joints are created equally.
I've hit some that are just absolutely duds.
Some were outright ugly hitting.

Case in point are the old Schons.
They hit pretty sporty. And sadly that hit, imo, has been lost in the new ones.

 

[skins]

Not all piloted SS joints are created equally.
I've hit some that are just absolutely duds.
Some were outright ugly hitting.

Case in point are the old Schons.
They hit pretty sporty. And sadly that hit, imo, has been lost in the new ones.

Sure, thats the point. It matters how its done. By that I mean not JUST the pilot. It ALL plays a part together.

 

[skins]

Who am I to argue what you choose to believe.

I only choose to believe what I know from my experience.

You'll do the same.

 

[greyghost]

The need of a pilot has expired. Contemporary pin technology and tolerance have evolved.
The greater the FLAT-faced surface area, the better the transfer of energy across the jnt.
The pilot does not improve this, it stifles it. Continued use of a pilot is traditional.

Case in point.
Most of today's 'pilots' are nothing more than the insert protruding from the face of the shaft.
It makes contact with NOTHING and denies the FLAT-faced contact area that the pilot needlessly occupies.
Somewhat related, it's been argued that the sidewall contact of the pilot to the interior wall of the
jnt-collar more than makes-up for the lost FLAT-faced contact area. PURE RUBBISH.
Shock/resonance waves travel in a straight line. They don't make right & left hand turns jumping a pilot.
Where the pilot ends is where that amount of wave ends.

Back when the pilot was thought to be needed, it almost made sense except that it was a patch for the real problem;
ill-fitting pins. We've put men on the moon since then and are now even making better fitting pins.

if that were true that it couldn't cross the barrier machined out diff esp when their surfaces are touching then why all the hub bub all thats been talked about for years about thread contact to the wood/insert?

whats the diff b/t a well constructed piloted joint and an A joint besides glue?

vibration may be effected such in the way that denser or lighter materials are known to do to such waves..........but the wave doesn't need to jump.....around anything.....

in a "perfect" cue.....everything is connected....everythings touching with no voids......wether by screw or glue/mech bond.

even if materials weren't touching, if a wave is strong enough.....the material will vibrate which ever direction the wave was moving in

if waves did'nt act like that then every old cues points and joints that aren't threaded would rattle loose....

if the waves moves up and down....what it goes through vibrates the same....it doesn't hit some magic spot and flare off to the left or right.

is there any evidence of what your saying or just a feeling?

 

[Sheldon]

I was cutting a house cue in half, and found a large metal pin in the middle of it. I stopped and on a whim tried playing with it. IT HITS THE SAME. Go figure.

 

[cachiocca]

The need of a pilot has expired. Contemporary pin technology and tolerance have evolved.
The greater the FLAT-faced surface area, the better the transfer of energy across the jnt.
The pilot does not improve this, it stifles it. Continued use of a pilot is traditional.

Case in point.
Most of today's 'pilots' are nothing more than the insert protruding from the face of the shaft.
It makes contact with NOTHING and denies the FLAT-faced contact area that the pilot needlessly occupies.
Somewhat related, it's been argued that the sidewall contact of the pilot to the interior wall of the
jnt-collar more than makes-up for the lost FLAT-faced contact area. PURE RUBBISH.
Shock/resonance waves travel in a straight line. They don't make right & left hand turns jumping a pilot.
Where the pilot ends is where that amount of wave ends.

Back when the pilot was thought to be needed, it almost made sense except that it was a patch for the real problem;
ill-fitting pins. We've put men on the moon since then and are now even making better fitting pins.

I question whether the need for for a piloted joint has expired, or if it's just become easier for cue makers to use a use a huge metal pin with course threads into wood without the trouble or tolerances of a shaft insert. The tolerances with screwing directly into wood, especially with some of the latest pin threads that are not very tight or crisp in the twist, do not compare to a properly fitted piloted, compression, or rambow-style joint with shaft inserts. Wood expands and contracts, and a screw directly into wood can easily strip and become loose. As many have said they charge more for a properly miced piloted joint. A piloted joint requires more precision in manufacturing than a flat-faced metal-to-wood joint.

I do agree with the statement that shock waves travel in a straight line, but I disagree with the how the contact is made through piloted contact over a flat faced joint. Shock waves may travel in a straight line but they also travel through other areas of contact. A fish hook in the finger tip will cause pain throughout the entire finger. Touch the hook stuck in your finger tip and shock waves will send it throughout your entire hand. The greater the points of contact the greater the shock transferred. Just like the wood-work involved in making a cue, the more points of contact for the adhesive the greater the bond, and transfer of the hit.

I am not a fan of flat-faced joints, or any of the uniloc joints offered. Just MHO.

 

[Dave38]

Right now I'm repairing an old Mali, with a pilot. The original specs are as follows: shaft has a .524" dia. pilot, but the SS collar has a .560" recess....you tell me what effect the pilot will have...

Piloted joints were originated to compensate for using off the shelf, grade 2 hardware from Rocky's, or any other local hardware store that the cue builder lived near as there was no cue builder supply house back then with precision machined Joint pins., The hardware they bought was as sloppy as a Saturday nite hired girl...... Over time those pilots end up changing, either the wood swells, or shrinks or the brass wears or all the above, and nowadays most of the brand new cues don't even touch from the get go..... and so what is the pilot's job then???? Absolutely nothing. The whole point of a pilot was to align the shaft to the butt on the last few turns because the threading had so much slop, but if 3-5 years after manufacture, they don't even touch, what's the point? Even today, 98% of the cues sold with a pilot, they don't touch the sides of the collar right after being built.
I personally use Tom's modified 3/8 x 10 with the flat minor and use a phenolic insert. Nothing changes with this, and the flat minor ALWAYS aligns the shaft to the butt the same way almost as soon as you start to turn the shaft, and it maintains a firm contact between the shaft and butt.
People can argue til blue in the face that the piloted joint hits better....etc, but really, if it doesn't contact fully into the collar recess, it's just what you may have been brainwashed into believing, IMO.
Dave

 

[Dave38]

I question whether the need for for a piloted joint has expired, or if it's just become easier for cue makers to use a use a huge metal pin with course threads into wood without the trouble or tolerances of a shaft insert. .

Take a brass shaft insert of 5/16x18 from any supplier and put it on a joint pin halfway on, then almost all the way down, with a dial indicator resting on one end of the insert, wiggle that insert and tell me what amount of slop do you have at both spots? Is this the Tolerance you speak of? Do the same on a 3/8 x10 with a flat minor pin with a properly bored and tapped hole, which will have more slop? I know where I'd put my money down....
It takes more careful work, and much more expensive tooling, plus a precision machined pin to do a 3/8x10 pin with a flat minor and a centering barrel. when you compare it to doing 5/16 pins that only need a drill and tap that can be bought for $15 at Rockys, and the insert costs a whopping $2 and pin can be made from threaded rod for pennies but the result is usually an ill fitting shaft, even with a pilot, IMO.
To each their own, I just try to build the best product that I can
Dave

 

[GBCues]

. . . . .

I do agree with the statement that shock waves travel in a straight line, but I disagree with the how the contact is made through piloted contact over a flat faced joint. Shock waves may travel in a straight line but they also travel through other areas of contact. A fish hook in the finger tip will cause pain throughout the entire finger. Touch the hook stuck in your finger tip and shock waves will send it throughout your entire hand. The greater the points of contact the greater the shock transferred. Just like the wood-work involved in making a cue, the more points of contact for the adhesive the greater the bond, and transfer of the hit.

I am not a fan of flat-faced joints, or any of the uniloc joints offered. Just MHO.

Cachiocca,
Your analogy between the physical shock waves associated with the hit of a cue and neurological "shock waves" of a fish hook in your finger is completely off base.
One is a physical phenomenon and pain is a chemo/neurological phenomenon - they have nothing to do with each other.
I don't disagree with your general point that physical shock waves travel in more directions than one straight path, but this comparison is apples and oranges.
Gary