Flowers Style Case Update

MBTaylor said:
Did you get permission to use GMAC? Couldn't you have atleast changed the font style so it is a little different than the GMAC Financial Services logo?
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Actually I don't have to. Any person can use a trademark or logo for their own private non-commercial use.

If a customer directs me to put a logo on something then I can do that as long as the use is non-commercial and non-confusing as to the owner of the trademark.

It's called fair use.

The example is this - You buy a Harley Davidson sticker. When you own that sticker you are allowed to put it on anything you own. You are allowed to display that thing, use that thing, do anything you want with that thing EXCEPT sell that thing as a Harley Davidson product.

In this case the customer requested the GMAC lettering, there is no chance that anyone will think that he or I own the GMAC logo, or that GMAC made a leather cue case, nor is there harm to GMAC ensuing from this.

I would not put a cuemaker's logo on a case though without that cuemaker's permission. The reason is that a cue case falls into the same category of products and there is a strong likelihood of confusion for the consumer that the cue case bearing the cuemaker's logo is a product that they either made or directed to be made. So in that situation I would ask the customer to obtain permission from the cuemaker.

There is more to it as well when using a logo in an expressive form that pertains to artistic use. I think that this customer may get asked for credit now whenever someone wants to match up with him. :-)

Hope this helps you to understand a little more.
 
JB Cases said:
Actually I don't have to. Any person can use a trademark or logo for their own private non-commercial use.

If a customer directs me to put a logo on something then I can do that as long as the use is non-commercial and non-confusing as to the owner of the trademark.

It's called fair use.

The example is this - You buy a Harley Davidson sticker. When you own that sticker you are allowed to put it on anything you own. You are allowed to display that thing, use that thing, do anything you want with that thing EXCEPT sell that thing as a Harley Davidson product.

In this case the customer requested the GMAC lettering, there is no chance that anyone will think that he or I own the GMAC logo, or that GMAC made a leather cue case, nor is there harm to GMAC ensuing from this.

I would not put a cuemaker's logo on a case though without that cuemaker's permission. The reason is that a cue case falls into the same category of products and there is a strong likelihood of confusion for the consumer that the cue case bearing the cuemaker's logo is a product that they either made or directed to be made. So in that situation I would ask the customer to obtain permission from the cuemaker.

There is more to it as well when using a logo in an expressive form that pertains to artistic use. I think that this customer may get asked for credit now whenever someone wants to match up with him. :-)

Hope this helps you to understand a little more.
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Great and Truthful Information john.
 
Jay Flowers reminds me of cue maker Rocky Tillis. Rocky and Jay were well known by poolplayers around the Tampa area and other parts of Florida (as were cuemakers Wayne Gunn and Ricco Cervantes).

Jay Flowers made a great case and Buddy Hall, Steve Cook, Benny Conway and a number of action players were aware of Jay Flowers and the cuemakers named, but these cuemakers and Jay weren't that well know outside of a small select circle.

Jay advertised his cases in Make It On "THE SNAP" magazine. SNAP magazine was only in existance for 13 issues from 1989-91. Jay ran a small Ad in some (but not all) of the SNAP magazines. I don't remember him advertising in any other billiards magazines and if someone here does, perhaps they can state the name of the publication and the date(s).

When Jay walked into a poolroom in Tampa, only a very few had any idea who he was. He carried one of his own cases and other players in the rooms hadn't heard of him or his cases. His opponents didn't know who he was and he didn't bother to enlighten them. It is rumored that he sold 1,000 cases, but I've heard him say that the number of his cases was well below that figure.

Jay chose to stop making cases about 15 years before his death and some owners of a Jay Flowers case treasure them dearly. At the same time, I've seen someone trying to sell a 2x4 Flowers case for $50 to a room full of players and noone would buy it (including me).

Like most poolplayers, Jay Flowers was a character and danced to the beat of a different drum. He has his place in pool case folklore, but it is a very small niche... imo

I think it's nice that Jay Flowers was an inspiration to JB and that it set JB into action on producing Instroke cases. I also think it's nice that John is honoring Jay by keeping his name alive in the industry and calling attention to Jay Flowers contribution to case making.

I think that John honors Jay's memory with Flowers tribute cases and I don't see anything wrong with what he's doing. John and I have had some brutal arguments over the years and have been at each others throats with threats of violence, but in this case (excuse the pun) I don't find fault with Jay Flowers tribute cases. YMMV

Doug
(I just wish that John would stop getting married and taking his current wife's last name. I'm having trouble remembering exactly who he is from year to year) :)
 
Smorgass Bored said:
Jay Flowers reminds me of cue maker Rocky Tillis. Rocky and Jay were well known by poolplayers around the Tampa area and other parts of Florida (as were cuemakers Wayne Gunn and Ricco Cervantes).

Jay Flowers made a great case and Buddy Hall, Steve Cook, Benny Conway and a number of action players were aware of Jay Flowers and the cuemakers named, but these cuemakers and Jay weren't that well know outside of a small select circle.

Jay advertised his cases in Make It On "THE SNAP" magazine. SNAP magazine was only in existance for 13 issues from 1989-91. Jay ran a small Ad in some (but not all) of the SNAP magazines. I don't remember him advertising in any other billiards magazines and if someone here does, perhaps they can state the name of the publication and the date(s).

When Jay walked into a poolroom in Tampa, only a very few had any idea who he was. He carried one of his own cases and other players in the rooms hadn't heard of him or his cases. His opponents didn't know who he was and he didn't bother to enlighten them. It is rumored that he sold 1,000 cases, but I've heard him say that the number of his cases was well below that figure.

Jay chose to stop making cases about 15 years before his death and some owners of a Jay Flowers case treasure them dearly. At the same time, I've seen someone trying to sell a 2x4 Flowers case for $50 to a room full of players and noone would buy it (including me).

Like most poolplayers, Jay Flowers was a character and danced to the beat of a different drum. He has his place in pool case folklore, but it is a very small niche... imo

I think it's nice that Jay Flowers was an inspiration to JB and that it set JB into action on producing Instroke cases. I also think it's nice that John is honoring Jay by keeping his name alive in the industry and calling attention to Jay Flowers contribution to case making.

I think that John honors Jay's memory with Flowers tribute cases and I don't see anything wrong with what he's doing. John and I have had some brutal arguments over the years and have been at each others throats with threats of violence, but in this case (excuse the pun) I don't find fault with Jay Flowers tribute cases. YMMV

Doug
(I just wish that John would stop getting married and taking his current wife's last name. I'm having trouble remembering exactly who he is from year to year) :)
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Very well said.
 
Speaking of cases, #004 is here & it is sweet! Thank you John for a great deal on a great case! :thumbup2:

Also glad to hear that about logos, that gives me another idea for another case. :grin-square:
 
WalkerInTN said:
Speaking of cases, #004 is here & it is sweet! Thank you John for a great deal on a great case! :thumbup2:

Also glad to hear that about logos, that gives me another idea for another case. :grin-square:
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Pictures PLEASE.:eek:
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Pictures PLEASE.:eek:
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It's dark out now & my indoor pics suck. :o

This picture is from John's post #24 in this topic of the case though, showing the exterior design. Interior is the standard tube style, covered in Black. Holds my 58" cues with joint protectors perfectly! :cool:

Very nice work there John! :thumbup2:

2008-004
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2008-009 is here!

My case 2008-009 arrived. It is very very nice, even better than I was expecting. It is nice to have something that has a little billiard history attached to it.

Thanks John

Lynn
 
lynng2378 said:
My case 2008-009 arrived. It is very very nice, even better than I was expecting. It is nice to have something that has a little billiard history attached to it.

Thanks John

Lynn
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Pictures please.
 
Lynn post some pics we are dieing to see your new case ... also hope you post some pics of your new Sly when you get it ...
 
First on the left

CocoboloCowboy said:
Those are some SWEET LOOKING CASES JOHN! I Can't wait to get mine.
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Mine is the first one on the left in post #33. Looks better in person. I really like how snug the tubs hold the cue and shafts. I'll post pick of my Sly and JP's from Jim baxter. JP on the way. LEON !!!
 
Beautiful case Lynn must be nice your about to have a whole new set up.... How lucky can you get ..
 
nasc said:
What a bunch of a$$ lickers. jb is using Mr. Flowers name to sell Chinese crap. Buy USA made cases.
Glen
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When I bought my case (yes, I too purchased one), I was unaware that J. Flowers name would be on the case, nor do I care now that I am aware. I saw a high quality case at a VERY good price. I don't think buying high quality at an extremely reasonable price makes one an a$$ licker.

Chris
 
nasc said:
What a bunch of a$$ lickers. jb is using Mr. Flowers name to sell Chinese crap. Buy USA made cases.
Glen
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Damn Glen, tell us how you really feel. What exactly makes it Chinese crap? If john were to use the exact same materials and fly over those same workers into the middle of Texas, and they assembled them over there, would it still be crap? I'm sorry, but I just dont understand. My mom worked for GM for 30 years. I cant tell you how many times she told me stories about 2 hour naps in the middle of the day, and guys hitting their quota in 4 hours and playing cards for the other 4. This was every day. Now my GM car is in the shop every 5 months and it cost 29 grand new. Thats even with my discount. My wife gets a used Honda accord for 7 grand, and we havent put 500 bucks into the car total. Is the Honda still crap for being Japanese? And even though I've probably put in 4 more grand into the Trailblazer, its still a quality car because it was made in the US? Bottom line, your quote makes you look silly. With my hours getting cut, I have to look out for myself. So, until you can prove that the cases are "Crap" and not just say they are, I'm going to spend my money in the best way I see fit. I'm sorry, but I believe that John explained himself more than adequately. If the Flowers family has any objections, I'm sure that they will voice them. Oh, and one more thing, just because I feel I'm getting the best deal for my money, that doesnt make me an a$$ licker. You voiced your opinion, and this was just mine. Sorry for the long ramble. Dom.
 
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nasc said:
What a bunch of a$$ lickers. jb is using Mr. Flowers name to sell Chinese crap. Buy USA made cases.
Glen
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Lol, hitting the bottle again Glen? That's right I am using Mr. Flowers name to sell crap. Hands up, how many of you have received crap for your money from me?

Let's take a poll shall we Glen? I have sold a lot of cases here and have nothing but positive feedback.

So the "crap" part of your statement is easily dismissed.

I will let the members of AZ, some of the most prolific and respected ones among them, handle your insulting remark about them.

Let's move on to the name? What name should I use to sell these Flowers-Style cases Glen? I mean Jay Flowers invented the style for cue cases as near as I can tell? So even if they didn't have J.Flowers stamped on them how do you propose I should sell them?

Should I give no credit at all to the origin of the design? Should I not make a case in this style at all? What is your suggestion of how I should do this?

Am I forbidden from making these cases? Is the design and the name off limits forever?

I really want to know what the rules are here. I mean I see people copying Jay Flowers cases and not giving him credit and it makes me wonder why it's off limits for me?

I started making cases in 2001. Jay was still making cases at the time. My friend was a Jay Flowers dealer in Germany. I got my first Jay Flowers case from him. I took it apart to study it.

I then started building cases that were different from anything previously seen.

In Germany two other case brands started up around that time, Eisele cases and True West cases, both of them in the Flowers style. Neither f them gave credit to Flowers for the inspiration, the designs, or the patterns. In the USA at the same time as Jay was building cases Jack Justis was busy making cases in the same style. I am guessing that Dennis Swift also started after Jay did. All throughout the 90's and until very recently I have never seen either of them give any credit to Jay for this style of case. (Jack recently gave Jay credit for the basic style in two interviews.)

So I decided that since I have the opportunity now to do a production line of cases that I would go all the way in the giving credit department and name the cases after Jay Flowers.

Perhaps I should have not used the name Flowers at all. I am certain that if I had just offered the cases by picture with no mention of "style" then I would have sold just as many based on my own reputation. However that's not MY style. I give credit when I use another person's ideas. I tell everyone where it came from and what I am bringing to the party that is new and improved.

What really pisses you off I think is that so many folks don't share your bigoted and racist attitude. Nor do they share your "wrap me in the flag no matter what" mentality.

People buy quality wherever that happens to be made. I am quite sure that you don't really want people around the world to only purchase things made in their country. Ask Jack Justis or any of the top cuemakers if they would like to give up their sales to foreign buyers in trade for no imports of any kind.

Wait a second, Jack is using the Justis name to sell Chinese made cases as well, are those "crap" and are his buyers,.....what did you call them??? Seems to me that his cases have received quite favorable reviews. So I guess they aren't crap. Oh and it's his name so he can do with it what he wants right? Got it.

So your real issue is the use of the words J.Flowers (well that's not your REAL issue, but I am unqualified to deal with that).

Well I can only say that your concern is noted even if you did manage to insult a lot of folks besides me while expressing it. I invite you, as I have many times before, to go on a crusade and warn everyone you can not to purchase my products. Make me the poster boy for all that's wrong with the world. I am sure that you will find some sympathy for your views and maybe those folks will become your disciples and help you to spread the word.

Point them to my website and show them the "awfulness" that is John Barton and his crappy cases. Because, honestly, I don't think that insulting my customers for buying from me is really going to win you a lot of sympathy. You're better off going for the ones who are undecided. Although I doubt many of them have the time or inclination to listen to your rhetoric.

Still want those bumper stickers you promised to pass out?
 
nasc said:
What a bunch of a$$ lickers. jb is using Mr. Flowers name to sell Chinese crap. Buy USA made cases.
Glen
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It doesn't matter where it was made, as long there's quality to it. Intel is building a wafer fab plant in China. So, why don't you stop using computers while at that? After all, Chinese crap right?

P/s: What cases do you have Glen? Any cheap cases, instroke, or something along those lines? Don't want to contradict yourself now do you?
 
IF anyone who is on the list does NOT want the stamp with J.Flowers on it just tell me. If you don't want it then I won't put it on there. This will negate the numbering system though so if you are purchasing this case in hopes of selling it someday based on the low number I'd reccomend that you leave it on there.

Anyone whose number is higher than 2008-009 can have their case without the J.Flowers stamp on it.

I know that for most of you this is not a big deal. If I told you the real reason for choosing to put this name on the case - beyond just wanting to give Jay credit which I would have anyway - then you'd be in complete agreement.

But I understand that some of you may not want to get embroiled in an ethics/geopolitical/moral/religious/racial debate just by purchasing a case. So I will be more than happy to make generic versions for those that wish it. I am always accomodating for my customers.

Cases being made this week are 2008-010 to 2008-014.

Thanks,

John
 
JB Cases said:
IF anyone who is on the list does NOT want the stamp with J.Flowers on it just tell me. If you don't want it then I won't put it on there. This will negate the numbering system though so if you are purchasing this case in hopes of selling it someday based on the low number I'd reccomend that you leave it on there.

Anyone whose number is higher than 2008-009 can have their case without the J.Flowers stamp on it.

I know that for most of you this is not a big deal. If I told you the real reason for choosing to put this name on the case - beyond just wanting to give Jay credit which I would have anyway - then you'd be in complete agreement.

But I understand that some of you may not want to get embroiled in an ethics/geopolitical/moral/religious/racial debate just by purchasing a case. So I will be more than happy to make generic versions for those that wish it. I am always accomodating for my customers.

Cases being made this week are 2008-010 to 2008-014.

Thanks,

John
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Wow war over cases.
 
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