Flowers Style Case Update
- Thread starter JB Cases
- Start date
nasc said:
Jack knows. He has been doing business with the Chinese for years and is now on their payroll.
I guess you want to call him a communist as well? You're funny Glen.
The Chinese company that is now paying Jack has been knocking him off for years prior to finally deciding that they could do more if they were able to use the Justis name and all of Jack's pictures. And Jack has been using Chinese interiors in his "Prolite" models since he started. The Prolite interior is the exact same one that you can find on many inexpensive cases made by the same company in China.
It's all very convoluted. Just yesterday I saw some Predator cases that are being knocked off by a local dealer who is having them made in some bag factory somewhere. The quality sucked but they were very very close in appearance to the real thing. Maybe next year they will license with Predator to make their knockoffs legitimate.
Sadly I also saw some counterfeit Predator cues. They were cheapo cues with really bad decals with the Predator logo on the buttcap and the 314-2 logo on the NORMAL crappy shaft. The distributor just shrugged and said it was a customer request.
Anyway, Glen, I work here and do what I can to encourage innovation over copying and giving credit over outright theft whenever I can.
Got to go now, Jack and I are late for our Party meeting. ;-)
Justis Tribute Case
Here is the link to the Flowers' cases you sent. I don't think the person who took these pictures would mind seeing them posted to prove a point that your trying to hide.http://www.jbcases.com/cases/jflowers/history/
Show me one pic of the Flowers case with this style pocket, lid closure or shoulder strap configuration.
Whatever I said about you in the past only confirms the obvious. Sorry you can't see it.
JB Cases said:
Here is the link to the Flowers' cases you sent. I don't think the person who took these pictures would mind seeing them posted to prove a point that your trying to hide.http://www.jbcases.com/cases/jflowers/history/
Show me one pic of the Flowers case with this style pocket, lid closure or shoulder strap configuration.
Whatever I said about you in the past only confirms the obvious. Sorry you can't see it.
Since Jack has informed me that he intends to publish the emails I send him I think I will just go ahead and show you my last email to him - and the last one I will ever send.
It's time to put this puppy to bed once and for all. This is how I really feel about the whole Jay Flowers/Jack Justis/Long Chan/Barton love triangle (can you have a triangle with four parties?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack,
You know something, I wasn't in the least upset that you were doing business with Long Chan. Surprised yes but not upset. What upset me is that you know they copied you and yet you accused me instead. So you made your bed and chose your bedfellows.
Sorry that the cases look so much like yours. I will definitely be changing this in the near future. I was actually thinking more of your lines and arrowheads and perfect diamonds that make your cases look distinctly "Justis".
You can however make all the comparisons you want to online. Because you are only getting sympathy from those that already don't like me. You already alienated a lot of folks on AZ with your "don't piss where you eat" comment when you did the design thief threads.
When you show off our cases side by side coupled with the good reviews then it only enhances the value of the cases. $275 for that level of case is pretty sporty don't you think? Especially when some very knowledgeable people are giving it the thumbs up.
I hope that Long Chan is looking at this and watching their investment go down the drain just like mine suffered when I had to hear dealers telling me that they could have "the same case" for half the price and they were talking about Long Chan's copies of my Instroke designs. For me these cases are a loss leader if need be.
The thing is that I am leaner and meaner. I can do this all day all the way to cost if I want to. And I know that their cost is higher than mine per case. I am not dependent on the J.Flowers cases for income. An added bonus however is that I am getting more JB Case orders through all this. And I can also offer every other case that Long Chan makes for less. If they go broke then I will pick up their best people and take over their business.
I am offended that they offer you money for your name. Money they earned through the theft of my designs. So now that I am in a position to do something about it I will. The great thing is that I am totally protected here. My team is fully versed in how to make custom orders from the ground up. We have plenty of custom orders to provide enough income for everyone here and can only increase our business in the production side when we take accounts away from Long Chan.
I am sorry Jack. You shouldn't be in the middle here and I probably wouldn't have done it this way were it not for your design thief comments. But you made them and you are unapologetic about it. Therefore as much as I do respect you and the great work you put out you are on the wrong side of the fence on this one and it's just going to have to play out. You can come at me from every angle online all you want to and it won't make a difference. From this moment on you can bet that I am doing everything I can to recoup the money owed to me from Long Chan's design theft and if that puts you on the battlefield then that's the way it is.
I don't really care what Jimbo and his crowd thinks. You can complain to them all day and at the end of the day they don't affect me one bit. My sales go to an audience that doesn't worship at his altar nor do they particularly care about your feelings in the matter. They want a good case at a good price and that's what I deliver.
I guarantee you that when I show up in Valley Forge, the US Open, BCA, or wherever, the cases will sell like hotcakes. I have been in this business long enough to know what the hot button price/quality ratio is. So you can tell Long Chan that they better be prepared to either lower their prices on Justis West cases or throw some heavyweight marketing dollars behind them. This is just the beginning for J.Flowers cases. When I am done they will be bigger and better than Jay ever made them.
Next time maybe you will think about it before you accuse someone of being a design thief while you are in bed with one.
It's time to put this puppy to bed once and for all. This is how I really feel about the whole Jay Flowers/Jack Justis/Long Chan/Barton love triangle (can you have a triangle with four parties?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack,
You know something, I wasn't in the least upset that you were doing business with Long Chan. Surprised yes but not upset. What upset me is that you know they copied you and yet you accused me instead. So you made your bed and chose your bedfellows.
Sorry that the cases look so much like yours. I will definitely be changing this in the near future. I was actually thinking more of your lines and arrowheads and perfect diamonds that make your cases look distinctly "Justis".
You can however make all the comparisons you want to online. Because you are only getting sympathy from those that already don't like me. You already alienated a lot of folks on AZ with your "don't piss where you eat" comment when you did the design thief threads.
When you show off our cases side by side coupled with the good reviews then it only enhances the value of the cases. $275 for that level of case is pretty sporty don't you think? Especially when some very knowledgeable people are giving it the thumbs up.
I hope that Long Chan is looking at this and watching their investment go down the drain just like mine suffered when I had to hear dealers telling me that they could have "the same case" for half the price and they were talking about Long Chan's copies of my Instroke designs. For me these cases are a loss leader if need be.
The thing is that I am leaner and meaner. I can do this all day all the way to cost if I want to. And I know that their cost is higher than mine per case. I am not dependent on the J.Flowers cases for income. An added bonus however is that I am getting more JB Case orders through all this. And I can also offer every other case that Long Chan makes for less. If they go broke then I will pick up their best people and take over their business.
I am offended that they offer you money for your name. Money they earned through the theft of my designs. So now that I am in a position to do something about it I will. The great thing is that I am totally protected here. My team is fully versed in how to make custom orders from the ground up. We have plenty of custom orders to provide enough income for everyone here and can only increase our business in the production side when we take accounts away from Long Chan.
I am sorry Jack. You shouldn't be in the middle here and I probably wouldn't have done it this way were it not for your design thief comments. But you made them and you are unapologetic about it. Therefore as much as I do respect you and the great work you put out you are on the wrong side of the fence on this one and it's just going to have to play out. You can come at me from every angle online all you want to and it won't make a difference. From this moment on you can bet that I am doing everything I can to recoup the money owed to me from Long Chan's design theft and if that puts you on the battlefield then that's the way it is.
I don't really care what Jimbo and his crowd thinks. You can complain to them all day and at the end of the day they don't affect me one bit. My sales go to an audience that doesn't worship at his altar nor do they particularly care about your feelings in the matter. They want a good case at a good price and that's what I deliver.
I guarantee you that when I show up in Valley Forge, the US Open, BCA, or wherever, the cases will sell like hotcakes. I have been in this business long enough to know what the hot button price/quality ratio is. So you can tell Long Chan that they better be prepared to either lower their prices on Justis West cases or throw some heavyweight marketing dollars behind them. This is just the beginning for J.Flowers cases. When I am done they will be bigger and better than Jay ever made them.
Next time maybe you will think about it before you accuse someone of being a design thief while you are in bed with one.
IMHO the e-mails are private, please keep them to yourselves guys.
No Bruce this needs to be cleared up. Jack wants to prevent anyone from doing this style of case when he himself copied Jay's style. He feels that it's ok to make false accusations and then not participate in the discussion.
At the same time he is now taking money from the largest manufacturer of cue cases in the world who has copied every case maker's work in the last thee decades. EVERY case maker's work including Jack's.
I am sure that Joe Porper is not to happy to see Jack Justis taking money from the company who produces more Porper copies per year than Porper has ever made. They produce more Instroke copies and Instroke derivative cases than Instroke has ever made.
I have never received a dime for all the copies they made from my designs.
I was quite happy for Jack that at least he was able to get something out of them. But quite unhappy to see Jack come on this forum and accuse me of doing something that I did not do, which was copy his cases.
Now he wants to threaten to make the emails I send him expressing my displeasure public. That's fine with me. This whole nasty business makes me sick inside anyway and I'd rather that it come out in the open and if not be resolved at least I don't need to hold it in.
At the same time he is now taking money from the largest manufacturer of cue cases in the world who has copied every case maker's work in the last thee decades. EVERY case maker's work including Jack's.
I am sure that Joe Porper is not to happy to see Jack Justis taking money from the company who produces more Porper copies per year than Porper has ever made. They produce more Instroke copies and Instroke derivative cases than Instroke has ever made.
I have never received a dime for all the copies they made from my designs.
I was quite happy for Jack that at least he was able to get something out of them. But quite unhappy to see Jack come on this forum and accuse me of doing something that I did not do, which was copy his cases.
Now he wants to threaten to make the emails I send him expressing my displeasure public. That's fine with me. This whole nasty business makes me sick inside anyway and I'd rather that it come out in the open and if not be resolved at least I don't need to hold it in.
Answer these questions Jack?
Are your Prolite interiors made in China?
If yes, have you ever disclosed publicly that they are made in China since you started using them?
Did you know that your customer J&J America copied your case?
Did you know that your partner Long Chan manufactures it?
When you visited Long Chan's factory and saw all of the copies of other people's cases did you feel any remorse at all for becoming the partner of such a large design thief?
Are your Prolite interiors made in China?
If yes, have you ever disclosed publicly that they are made in China since you started using them?
Did you know that your customer J&J America copied your case?
Did you know that your partner Long Chan manufactures it?
When you visited Long Chan's factory and saw all of the copies of other people's cases did you feel any remorse at all for becoming the partner of such a large design thief?
I can go on and on with the pictures...but my point is basically this...every once in a while a revolutionary design is introduced (Jay Flowers) and many products inspired by the design is introduced into the market hoping to get a piece of the pie.
So every time another iPhone knockoff comes out, does Apple get mad? I'm sure inside they get a little heated, but that only drives them to come out with better versions (add 3G capability, build an online app store, lower pricing, etc).
Jack Justis is Jack Justis. And John Barton is John Barton. Even when I look at the pictures that Jack posted that pointed out all the similarities, I still see the differences as well. The way the leather is wrapped around the case, the difference in tooling, subtle differences that will evolve into something even more different down the line.
I love and respect all casemakers out there. It's an art form that can only be expressed correctly in the hands of a few talented people out there. I can only hope that there will be no animosity between these 2 guys. I wish both Jack and JB a successful future.
JB Cases said:
Who cares! Your way of twisting words to suit your own agenda is again reflected above. I did not say I was going to post your previous silly emails. I said future emails.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:45 PM, <JJustis4@aol.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: flowers pics
Date: 11/14/2008 7:45:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: JJustis4
Reply To:
To: john@sterling-gaming.com
Any future emails you send will be posted publicly.
Jack Justis said:
So what? Do you think that matters to me? You can post any emails you want to. It's time that this was resolved anyway.
Answer the questions I asked you since you want to prove something.
A lot of folks are all about truth in labeling, especially Glen, so tell us if you ever used Chinese-made interiors while selling under a Made in USA banner?
And are these "Pro-Lite" interiors the EXACT same as those found on many other inexpensive cases sold under various brands?
Let's just put it all on the table Jack. Or can you face direct questions?
Jack Justis said:
Twisting words?
This is what I said:
Originally Posted by JB Cases
Since Jack has informed me that he intends to publish the emails I send him I think I will just go ahead and show you my last email to him - and the last one I will ever send.
Notice the word in bold? It's send not sent which indicates future ones.
There is no twisting words here Jack it's truth time. Will you answer the above questions honestly or will you avoid them altogether?
Do you feel like Joe Porper is owed anything from the nearly exact copies of his cases that come out of your partner's factory?
iba7467 said:
Yes I agree, you get exactly what you pay for.
Price/Quality = Value
I loved it when Michael-Hoang put up the pictures of the Justis West cases; they were sweet. I had even emailed him expressing interest. However they, JustisWest, seem to want to get full freight for these JustisWest cases as if they were an original Jack Justis case; I would not and will not support that. In no way can you convince me that these JustisWest cases should sell for $420-$480. IMHO, these JustisWest cases should be in the $350 range max!
That is why I went ahead and ordered a case from John. I had spoken with him several times, he was always up front, honest and just plain nice to me. He is correct when he says he know the sweet spot; obviously JustisWest does not. Again IMHO.
I have seen John's work on both his JB cases and the ones out of the Jaisen facility and there are Soooooo many sweet looking cases he doesn't have to take a back seat to anyone.
I, personally, have no problem with John's doing his Flower's style cue cases. It's like saying a musician is stealing from another musician. They all hear the same music throughout their lifetime and everyone lifts their chops from someone else. It becomes a composite, a conglomeration, a mixing of all those styles they have heard throughout the years. It is blending of exposure to create something different yet similar. Are all of these musicians thieves? I think not.
iba7467 said:
I loved it when Michael-Hoang put up the pictures of the Justis West cases; they were sweet. I had even emailed him expressing interest. However they, JustisWest, seem to want to get full freight for these JustisWest cases as if they were an original Jack Justis case; I would not and will not support that. In no way can you convince me that these JustisWest cases should sell for $420-$480. IMHO, these JustisWest cases should be in the $350 range max!
That is why I went ahead and ordered a case from John. I had spoken with him several times, he was always up front, honest and just plain nice to me. He is correct when he says he know the sweet spot; obviously JustisWest does not. Again IMHO.
I have seen John's work on both his JB cases and the ones out of the Jaisen facility and there are Soooooo many sweet looking cases he doesn't have to take a back seat to anyone.
I, personally, have no problem with John's doing his Flower's style cue cases. It's like saying a musician is stealing from another musician. They all hear the same music throughout their lifetime and everyone lifts their chops from someone else. It becomes a composite, a conglomeration, a mixing of all those styles they have heard throughout the years. It is blending of exposure to create something different yet similar. Are all of these musicians thieves? I think not.
lefty84 said:
Sure. Just email me at jb@jbideas.com. Right now I am just trying to get through the initial orders - new orders will take about four weeks from now to complete. ( I hope)
I want to buy a case for my son that will last him a lifetime... but I don't want to spend more than $300! Can either of you provide me with one? I want his nickname tooled on it as well....
Jack Justis said:
And sometimes you get more than what you pay for. My name isn't Justis and I don't give all the Champions a free case but I will be more than happy to have an independent evaluator take one of your cases and one of mine and compare them for structural integrity/protection vs. price paid.
I don't know if Consumer Reports would do such a thing but count me in as willing to send them any similar case we make to go head to head against yours in the price/quality category.
In the prestige category you have us beat hands down. In certain circles your status as a person goes up tremendously if you walk in with a "Justis" on your shoulder. A Barton made case might never get the red carpet rolled out for it's user but the people who do have one of mine certainly can feel secure with the quality and value they own.
And those Ron Ross carved cases you do are the NUTS! Ron Ross does great work and really brings your cases some out of this world appeal.
I know how that is when a master carver does work like that. Every case that Chas Clements did for me sold within an hour of first displaying it. It's too bad he isn't doing any carving any more because a Barton case with Chas Clements carving and tooling would be the triple nuts.
There is a bright horizon however in this category. A master tooler from Taiwan has given us some lessons and I hope to engage him for a clinic. And he has agreed to do some tooling on our cases so that will be interesting to see what comes out.
Anyway the value received for the price paid is certainly something that each consumer has to see for themselves. I don't think that you will get very far by telling consumers that because they pay less for one of my cases that they get less than they would when they pay more for one of yours. Prove it with a side by side comparison if that's how you really feel.