Flowers Style Case Update

JB Cases said:
I see the point that a FEW people were making but you don't or won't see mine.

You few people want to charge me with some kind of legal and ethical misdeed because I chose to to brand the cases J.Flowers. As if I am going to sell more of them because of this and I am going to rape the Jay Flowers name and make a "profit" from it.

I sold 25 of these cases when they had no name, right here on AZ, to people who could care less what name is on them.

You might not like me or like what I do but don't confuse me with someone stupid that you can lecture at will and expect to bend to your vision of the world.

The fact is that I chose this name deliberately for a reason that has nothing to do with profit or value of the name. I didn't do this on a whim it was done after a lot of thought. When these cases are advertised in the future most of the people who will be reading those advertisements will have no clue who Jay Flowers was.

We here on AZ Billiards are pretty insulated and knowledgeable about the past - those who don't spend their time here everyday generally are not. Therefore to them the name Jay Flowers means about as much as John Smith. I'd even be willing to bet that some on here ordered this case without even really knowing who Jay Flowers was. (it's a lock Justin)

As I said, I could have called these cases anything I want and they will sell without any problem. For lineage I can and will provide a link to Jay Flower's designs and my own history in cue cases to educate and assure customers of the quality. I don't need to attach the Flowers name directly to this product to validate it. You should consider then what other motivation besides "profit" would I choose deliberately to brand this case as I did?

Maybe taking a few moments to consider these things would enable you to understand that not everything is motivated by profit and greed.
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You have convinced me John. It makes total sense to put another famous makers name on your cases.

Best of luck in the "tribute" business.

I can't wait to see what lucky guy gets honored with a "tribute" next.

Hell maybe I will get lucky and John will make TAR tribute dvd's in China. I mean no one there has ever heard of the brand, it wouldn't add any value and it would sure be an honor.

Oh.....we ain't dead yet. Maybe one day our product will be lucky enough to have such a fitting tribute. I can only dream.
 
JCIN said:
You have convinced me John. It makes total sense to put another famous makers name on your cases.

Best of luck in the "tribute" business.

I can't wait to see what lucky guy gets honored with a "tribute" next.

Hell maybe I will get lucky and John will make TAR tribute dvd's in China. I mean no one there has ever heard of the brand, it wouldn't add any value and it would sure be an honor.

Oh.....we ain't dead yet. Maybe one day our product will be lucky enough to have such a fitting tribute. I can only dream.
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Thanks, I am sure that I won't need the luck though. I hope for you though that you do build a brand that can outlive you. Jay didn't do that and his family has not shown any interest in continuing the brand.

I'd certainly hope that if TAR stopped producing DVDs for 15 years that someone somewhere would not let your material die. But what you describe is a red herring because your work is protected by copyright for up to 70 years after you die. I'd really like it if you could get your examples straight before you continue the discussion as that helps to keep the discussion on point.

Your sarcasm is noted however. Your displeasure is also noted. If you want to then you can make a podcast telling everyone what a scumbag I am. Use your broadcasting power to tell your listeners of this great injustice. That's a medium where only your voice can be heard and I cannot tell my side of it. So go ahead. I am sure that since you aren't really interested in my side of things that no interview will be forthcoming where you could actually learn something about me. Make sure you get my name and website right though so that all those listeners can go to it to see for themselves what a rotten person I am.

Evil "for profit" John signing off to go make more evil copies in my evil workshop. The world shall be mine bwahahahahah...............

(Where do I sign up for the free passes? How much do I have to donate in order to get one?)
 
This is a slow dying horse. Should be dead by now. Hopefully it won't last much longer. Don't know why insidious threads like this pull people in.

Granada/Mercedes, Southwest style, Szamboti style, the list is endless and has been for decades. Nothing new here.

John, just tell them you're impervious to their fulminating invectives and name your cases whatever you want to. By continuing to defend your actions you're providing fodder for the hyenas. Az'ers, et al... if you don't like them don't buy them but quit whining. John has done a lot for this industry and should be respected for it. Give the man a break and some credit.
 
JB Cases said:
Thanks, I am sure that I won't need the luck though. I hope for you though that you do build a brand that can outlive you. Jay didn't do that and his family has not shown any interest in continuing the brand.

I'd certainly hope that if TAR stopped producing DVDs for 15 years that someone somewhere would not let your material die. But what you describe is a red herring because your work is protected by copyright for up to 70 years after you die. I'd really like it if you could get your examples straight before you continue the discussion as that helps to keep the discussion on point.

Your sarcasm is noted however. Your displeasure is also noted. If you want to then you can make a podcast telling everyone what a scumbag I am. Use your broadcasting power to tell your listeners of this great injustice. That's a medium where only your voice can be heard and I cannot tell my side of it. So go ahead. I am sure that since you aren't really interested in my side of things that no interview will be forthcoming where you could actually learn something about me. Make sure you get my name and website right though so that all those listeners can go to it to see for themselves what a rotten person I am.

Evil "for profit" John signing off to go make more evil copies in my evil workshop. The world shall be mine bwahahahahah...............

(Where do I sign up for the free passes? How much do I have to donate in order to get one?)
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John you seem to think that because I simply made the point that maybe putting another makers name on your case may have some ethical questions involved means that I lose sleep at night over your business practices. I don't.

If someone asks me what I think personally of the idea I will tell them but I will not use TAR to to slam you. To me that would be unethical and unfair. If you offered to advertise your Flowers cases with us we would refuse, we don't sell out our integrity for a buck. In the end we just differ on our views of what is right and wrong. I am very comfortable on where I stand just as you are I'm sure.
 
Jeffrey Hall said:
This is a slow dying horse. Should be dead by now. Hopefully it won't last much longer. Don't know why insidious threads like this pull people in.

Granada/Mercedes, Southwest style, Szamboti style, the list is endless and has been for decades. Nothing new here.

John, just tell them you're impervious to their fulminating invectives and name your cases whatever you want to. By continuing to defend your actions you're providing fodder for the hyenas. Az'ers, et al... if you don't like them don't buy them but quit whining. John has done a lot for this industry and should be respected for it. Give the man a break and some credit.
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they only know how to whine. but they dont actually move hehe. sad but true :D

who started making plain jane cues? and why alot of people have plain janes custom made :D
 
Jeffrey Hall said:
This is a slow dying horse. Should be dead by now. Hopefully it won't last much longer. Don't know why insidious threads like this pull people in.

Granada/Mercedes, Southwest style, Szamboti style, the list is endless and has been for decades. Nothing new here.

John, just tell them you're impervious to their fulminating invectives and name your cases whatever you want to. By continuing to defend your actions you're providing fodder for the hyenas. Az'ers, et al... if you don't like them don't buy them but quit whining. John has done a lot for this industry and should be respected for it. Give the man a break and some credit.
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John has done a lot for John. Show me the tournaments and events he has created that promote the game and help the players. He is business man who makes products for money, which is just fine. But to make him out as a altruistic angel is pushing the envelope a little.

Yeah asking questions regarding ethics is just whining. Whatever.

People wonder why outside money looks at pool as a joke ?
 
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JCIN said:
John you seem to think that because I simply made the point that maybe putting another makers name on your case may have some ethical questions involved means that I lose sleep at night over your business practices. I don't.

If someone asks me what I think personally of the idea I will tell them but I will not use TAR to to slam you. To me that would be unethical and unfair. If you offered to advertise your Flowers cases with us we would refuse, we don't sell out our integrity for a buck. In the end we just differ on our views of what is right and wrong. I am very comfortable on where I stand just as you are I'm sure.
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I don't think that you lose sleep over it at all. People that are convinced that they are right generally sleep quite well.

It's funny that you mention integrity which I guess is a slam on mine. The fact is, as I explained to you previously and privately, that there is more to this than you understand. It's quite easy to make a snap judgment and go off on a public forum. It seems to be much harder to simply send someone an email and ask for their version and maybe get to know them a little bit.

Let me ask you something since you mention integrity? Did I not offer to help you in many ways? Have I not communicated with you several times and offered whatever help I could without zero mention of wanting credit or advertising?

Or when you went off on air about import cues while interviewing cuemakers I politely and privately suggested that perhaps you shouldn't do that since your main sponsor sells import cues. I suggested in private that perhaps it would serve you well to do some research on the product before you slam it.

A few times I have donated to you just because I believe in what you are doing. I have never asked you for recognition in the form of advertising.

Maybe if I had sent you a free case or a cue then I would have gotten some love. But I don't that. I don't throw product at organizations or pros in order to buy their love. I donate product or sponsor people and events I believe in after people request it of me and I evaluate the request.

There are a lot of folks in this industry who have received sponsorship from me throughout the years. Have they all sold their integrity for a buck?

If I told a hypothetical story about a brand being licensed and subsequently that brand being used to deceive consumers systematically with the knowledge of the brand owner would you conclude that the brand owner had "sold their integrity for a buck"? Or would it depend on the situation?

And another hypothetical situation for you to judge;

Business A makes a single product and gives away several of that product to professional players for their personal use. This is a product that is widely available with a fairly low cost to acquire extremely functional alternatives. So the pro players are receiving no financial benefit from the acquisition of this "sponsorship". Business A then advertises the relationship to their benefit. Business A makes virtually no other sponsorships in the industry.

Business B. makes and distributes a wider variety of products and sponsors professional players with product and money, they sponsor events with product and money and make many charitable donations of product in and outside the industry each year. They advertise only about 20% of this activity.

Which of these two businesses benefits the billiard community more and promotes the sport more?

And the last hypothetical example;

Business C. imports billiard products, cues and cases mostly. They also purchase domestic brands for resale in other parts of the world. A large part of their import line consists of copies of domestic brands. This company never supports pool in any overt way. They profit off of blatant design theft and are never called out for it.

Do you think that those domestic suppliers who sell to business C. are "selling out for a buck"?

What are your thoughts on these hypothetical situations Justin?
 
JB Cases said:
I don't think that you lose sleep over it at all. People that are convinced that they are right generally sleep quite well.

It's funny that you mention integrity which I guess is a slam on mine. The fact is, as I explained to you previously and privately, that there is more to this than you understand. It's quite easy to make a snap judgment and go off on a public forum. It seems to be much harder to simply send someone an email and ask for their version and maybe get to know them a little bit.

Let me ask you something since you mention integrity? Did I not offer to help you in many ways? Have I not communicated with you several times and offered whatever help I could without zero mention of wanting credit or advertising?

Or when you went off on air about import cues while interviewing cuemakers I politely and privately suggested that perhaps you shouldn't do that since your main sponsor sells import cues. I suggested in private that perhaps it would serve you well to do some research on the product before you slam it.

A few times I have donated to you just because I believe in what you are doing. I have never asked you for recognition in the form of advertising.

Maybe if I had sent you a free case or a cue then I would have gotten some love. But I don't that. I don't throw product at organizations or pros in order to buy their love. I donate product or sponsor people and events I believe in after people request it of me and I evaluate the request.

There are a lot of folks in this industry who have received sponsorship from me throughout the years. Have they all sold their integrity for a buck?

If I told a hypothetical story about a brand being licensed and subsequently that brand being used to deceive consumers systematically with the knowledge of the brand owner would you conclude that the brand owner had "sold their integrity for a buck"? Or would it depend on the situation?

And another hypothetical situation for you to judge;

Business A makes a single product and gives away several of that product to professional players for their personal use. This is a product that is widely available with a fairly low cost to acquire extremely functional alternatives. So the pro players are receiving no financial benefit from the acquisition of this "sponsorship". Business A then advertises the relationship to their benefit. Business A makes virtually no other sponsorships in the industry.

Business B. makes and distributes a wider variety of products and sponsors professional players with product and money, they sponsor events with product and money and make many charitable donations of product in and outside the industry each year. They advertise only about 20% of this activity.

Which of these two businesses benefits the billiard community more and promotes the sport more?

And the last hypothetical example;

Business C. imports billiard products, cues and cases mostly. They also purchase domestic brands for resale in other parts of the world. A large part of their import line consists of copies of domestic brands. This company never supports pool in any overt way. They profit off of blatant design theft and are never called out for it.

Do you think that those domestic suppliers who sell to business C. are "selling out for a buck"?

What are your thoughts on these hypothetical situations Justin?
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For one it was not me who was going off about production cues in the podcast. That was Chad. You want to ask about those statements ask the guy who made them. I would also be interested to know who our main sponsor is that sells import cues? We have one cue sponsor and that is OB Cues. They are made in the U.S.A. They are also great people who support the game in numerous ways.

You have offered ideas. Just as many people have. Have I ever solicited ideas from you ? Have I ever said "John please help me?" No. You have decided on your own to either purchase or make donations to us. I have owned all kinds of Instroke stuff over the years but you don't see me throwing that up when you say something I disagree with. If you don't like our product don't buy it. If my opinion bothers you stop supporting TAR. If you think because you throw us $20 a couple times I am gonna agree with what you say you are very mistaken.

You make copies of other people's work in China and then sell them here for a profit. You have built up a wall of justifications why you think this is right. Some of them make sense to me , others do not. In the end it does not really concern me since you are the one who has to live with the choices you make.

I am not going to play your example game. I think I have made clear my stance on the issue. If you want to take this farther and really start asking the hard questions I guess I am willing but I would just prefer to let it die. Stirring up sh!t in public serves no purpose other than to hurt everyone and amuse the peanut gallery. I posted in this thread because I had a legitimate question about why you put Flowers name on your case. You have answered that ,so as far as I am concerned, I am done with it.
 
JCIN said:
John has done a lot for John. Show me the tournaments and events he has created that promote the game and help the players. He is business man who makes products for money, which is just fine. But to make him out as a altruistic angel is pushing the envelope a little.

Yeah asking questions regarding ethics is just whining. Whatever.

People wonder why outside money looks at pool as a joke ?
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Why don't you ask around and I think you'll find that in the last 15 years Instroke, with me driving, has sponsored events and players with plenty of money and product. No we haven't created any events because we are not in the event creation business. Should I be?

Is that where you think that my sponsorship budget should go? Should I use those resources to create events instead of sponsoring existing ones.

I guarantee you that I have put more product and cash money back into this game than any of my case making colleagues.

You aren't asking questions regarding ethics, you are making accusations regarding ethics. There is a difference.

I asked you questions regarding ethics. You want to be the ethics police, judge and jury, (but not the investigator) then answer the ones I posed.

A small list of players that I have sponsored with product, money or other help in the past 18 years include the following:

Allen Hopkins
Jimmy Reed
Francisco Bustamante
Efren Reyes
Buddy Hall
Allison Fisher
Belinda Calhoun
Mike Massey
Shawn Putnam
Sarah Ellerby
Tony Robles
Ralf Souquet
Rafael Martinez
Tommy Kennedy
Grady Matthews
Dave Grossman

On top of that I sponsored many tournaments with product donations to include special event cases.

Like the Mosconi Cup team, the US Open champions for a few years, many smaller tours and tournaments. In Germany Instroke sponsored several events and players with both product and money.

On top of the inside industry stuff I have donated to recreation centers, rehabilitation centers, and other charities. In these situations I often traded for other billiard supplies and sent those instead. Many cue and case combos went up for auction at charity events. I'd like to think that in some small way this comes back to help the billiard industry.

So no, Justin I haven't created any events but I have lent my support to them where I could.

And lastly from another viewpoint, I think that I have raised the awareness that protection matters in cue cases and hopefully done a little to make consumers choose their cue cases a little more carefully. I am fairly confident that my constant lecturing on this subject has inspired my colleagues to build better products and that in and of itself benefits everyone.
 
JB Cases said:
You aren't asking questions regarding ethics, you are making accusations regarding ethics. There is a difference.
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I am not gonna air dirty laundry here.

This is my last response to you on this.
 
For one it was not me who was going off about production cues in the podcast. That was Chad. You want to ask about those statements ask the guy who made them. I would also be interested to know who our main sponsor is that sells import cues? We have one cue sponsor and that is OB Cues. They are made in the U.S.A. They are also great people who support the game in numerous ways. [/QUOTE]


I stand corrected that it was Chad. Well I sent an email to someone at TAR so I assume that Chad was able to read it. Your sponsor is or was at the time I wrote the letter the BCAPL (BCA Pool League) which has a store that sells imported and domestic products to it's members.

JCIN said:
You have offered ideas. Just as many people have. Have I ever solicited ideas from you ? Have I ever said "John please help me?" No. You have decided on your own to either purchase or make donations to us. I have owned all kinds of Instroke stuff over the years but you don't see me throwing that up when you say something I disagree with.
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That wasn't the point. The point was that you want to claim that everything I do is motivated only by profit. Taking time to give you suggestions with no expectation of reward isn't exactly profit motivated.



JCIN said:
If you don't like our product don't buy it. If my opinion bothers you stop supporting TAR. If you think because you throw us $20 a couple times I am gonna agree with what you say you are very mistaken.
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I don't expect that at all. I do expect you to at least try and find out the other side before you go off.

You make copies of other people's work in China and then sell them here for a profit. You have built up a wall of justifications why you think this is right. Some of them make sense to me , others do not. In the end it does not really concern me since you are the one who has to live with the choices you make.
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Really, what copies have I made? Show me one. You can't. You can take GTF and "say" it's a copy but it's not. It's a case made in the style of Fellini and Centennial with my own modifications (improvements in my opinion). If you want to still maintain that those cases are copies and that this is wrong then I would expect you to call out EVERYONE who has made this style of case after Fellini and denounce them accordingly.

Next you might want to take the Flowers cases and say that those are copies. Are they? Or are they similar looking cases that use a style popularized by a past case maker? You see when you throw around words like "copies" and "ethics" you make it seem as if you are speaking from a knowledgeable and greater moral position. But you aren't because if you do, in fact, believe that that the cases I produce are copies and ethically wrong then you also believe that Ron Thomas and Jack Justis produce copies which are also ethically and morally wrong.

Is this what you believe?


I am not going to play your example game. I think I have made clear my stance on the issue.
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Of course you won't. Because it's fairly easy to pick on the guy who makes his stuff in China but a lot harder to look inwardly at the folks you support (or ignore) and see what they are into. And no, you haven't made your stance clear. You say you against copies but can't define what copies are, you say you are against "tributes" but then you don't go off on all the people who make them

If you want to take this farther and really start asking the hard questions I guess I am willing but I would just prefer to let it die. Stirring up sh!t in public serves no purpose other than to hurt everyone and amuse the peanut gallery.
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It wasn't me who stirred up anything. I am doing my business providing good products at fair prices. You and a few others are the ones that questioned my ethics with your accusations. You seem to think that it's perfectly okay for you to drop in and lay down your "opinon" and have it be taken as the gospel truth without any rebuttal. When someone does stand up to defend themselves you then back off saying you don't want to stir the shit. The fact is Justin that you DO want to stir up trouble. I am damn SURE that if Jack had decided to make a line of cases that said J.Flowers on them that you would have either kept quiet about it or even praised his decision to do so. But as long as it's me then you feel free to go ahead and make whatever accusatory statements you want to


I posted in this thread because I had a legitimate question about why you put Flowers name on your case. You have answered that ,so as far as I am concerned, I am done with it.
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Really? Forgive me but I missed the question? Did you actually post a question or was more in the form of an accusation where you already had formed your opinion as to why I did it?

The fact is that you don't know the facts. If you ever cared to get them you would have tried.
 
JCIN said:
I am not gonna air dirty laundry here.

This is my last response to you on this.
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Go ahead. There is nothing you can say that makes any difference. Perhaps someone sent you some private correspondence. If you think that this is the dirty secret that supports your position then go ahead. I correspond with my colleagues and tell them my feelings on a variety of subjects.

If you think you have something then go ahead since you implied it. Just be prepared that when you open that can of worms there is no going back. I have nothing to hide but others certainly do.
 
Sorry to insert this here, but I didn't wish to start a new thread. JCIN, please clear some room in your PM box.

Thanks, Chris.
 
Pinocchio said:
John Barton maybe on day you'll be in the Chinese Knock-off Hall of Fame. God knows you deserve to be there........................
Pinocchio
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Nah, I don't make knockoffs. You can't post any examples of such.

However there are plenty of others who truly deserve the honor. Only you are too lazy to "out" them.

I make improvements. I challenge everyone I work with to think of how to make things better, how to be different.

What are you doing to make your world better?
 
JB Cases said:
Nah, I don't make knockoffs. You can't post any examples of such.

However there are plenty of others who truly deserve the honor. Only you are too lazy to "out" them.

I make improvements. I challenge everyone I work with to think of how to make things better, how to be different.

What are you doing to make your world better?[/QUOTE]


i don't know about P but my mission is to persuade you to come home.

The communists here need you as much, if not moreso, than those you currently serve. You will find our unique form of socialism VERY attractive because we still allow privatization of profits while losses are now absorbed by the populace.

Makes me want to come out of retirement...

i understand if you choose to remain where you are and continue to make the world a better place by improving on cue case designs which are decades old:)
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ribdoner said:
JB Cases said:
Nah, I don't make knockoffs. You can't post any examples of such.

However there are plenty of others who truly deserve the honor. Only you are too lazy to "out" them.

I make improvements. I challenge everyone I work with to think of how to make things better, how to be different.

What are you doing to make your world better?[/QUOTE]


i don't know about P but my mission is to persuade you to come home.

The communists here need you as much, if not moreso, than those you currently serve. You will find our unique form of socialism VERY attractive because we still allow privatization of profits while losses are now absorbed by the populace.

Makes me want to come out of retirement...

i understand if you choose to remain where you are and continue to make the world a better place by improving on cue case designs which are decades old:)
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Well Adam, I have been smitten by love. (don't cry). So I will be here a while longer. I will say that in the past several months I have been a little homesick for a variety of reasons. As for the communists and socialists I can't find any here. Everyone I know is all about starting a business here. They plow their profits into big screen tvs, big houses, Mercedes and so on. Sound familiar?

Yes I did notice that the new brand of socialism in the USA is very attractive to big business there. I am not so sure that medium and small business are seeing the "benefit" of taxpayer subsidies though. I think that the effect of the new socialist policies implemented by emperor Bush will not be too good for small businesses like mine which need credit from time to time. So it's not a good time to come home and start a business there.

I have a few more things to show you beside sprucing up old designs. That was the warm up act :-) Always the easy stuff first in show business, never give up the climax in the first five minutes.
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JB Cases said:
2008-002
DSC01699R.jpg

DSC01702R.jpg
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Did you get permission to use GMAC? Couldn't you have atleast changed the font style so it is a little different than the GMAC Financial Services logo?
 
MBTaylor said:
Did you get permission to use GMAC? Couldn't you have atleast changed the font style so it is a little different than the GMAC Financial Services logo?
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I hope you were being sarcastic here...
 
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