Follow-up between Hal and Thingie (Joel)

I have the cash. If that is what you are thinking. Posting 25 times a day doesn't mean you won't run. Also pm-ing me that you will keep the cue if you can get "an appropriate cash settlement" makes me feel, you had a little remorse and all you wanted was to get that Southwest at a cheaper price. Right from the start.

Presurring and calling the world to your opinion is really a low blow, could this not have worked out if you chose to be patient and discuss this over PM? Just cause you got your money for the repair work when you complained about that ding so quickly, you could bully me into paying you for what you want to keep? I believe this could all be settled maturely through the PM system, but you choose to blow it out, pm-ing me at 2.20am (Singapore time) and telling me that I've got until today to refund you your money, and then going on the board to report to the world at 2.40am (SGP), when I was supposed to be asleep. So I had no response time and after seeing what you had posted, I was angry and decided not to post till later when I had cooled down.

Not responding is not stalling when you are in my shoes and I was trying to find a better way to resolve this. I believe it would be hard for anyone to give a full refund after the cue has been used that much. Could anyone go back to Laurie after 3 years (cue was made in 2004) and say to her that the butt warped and you wanted a refund even though it has been played with?

Putting words in my words in my mouth and saying I will refund you was a little sneaky of you, at no time did I do that.
Hal said:
Just to clarify:

Thingie told me before I paid for the cue that he would refund my money if I wasn't satisfied with the cue. Well guess what? I'm not satisfied.

This was on Sunday. The only other contact I've had with him was on Monday when he told me to ship the cue to Raemondo.

thingie said:
I will refund you as requested, minus shipping fees, which come up to $2000 as I have paid you for the ding repair (which has not been done).

However, I can only paypal you in a day's time. I have to speak to the original owner of the cue to release the money to me before I can pay you.

to make it clear, the cue was in the condition I described when I sold it, packed it and shipped it. I do not see any point to why I should misrepresent the cue and risk hard earned reputation for $2000. Thats kind of a shitty way to lose it really. No transaction is worth risking reputation for, whether it is a $10 joint protector or a $15000 Szam.

In no way was the cue misrepresented. Why would I declare that one of the shaft has a slight wobble? If there was a ding that large, would I risk not telling Hal about it, if it happened in my hands? If it was warped, could I have missed it after checking it thoroughly?

Use some common sense to think about this, before shooting your mouth off. I'm glad there are still some posters who bother to go through their own research and experience before they post what they wish to say. I do not wish to post merely from seeing that the other sellers who have made disputes always end up on the losing end or in a flame war with the buyers.

Lastly, I know you guys practice a lot of "trust" which is somehow what i've seen a lot here but that doesn't carry on when it starts to head south. I quote a member who wishes to remain annoynomous,

It always has worked this way when you are the seller. You put the cue up for sale, Someone enters into a contract to purchase the cue. What happens? The buyer sends the payment before receiving the product. Ok, Buyer is unsatisfied. Buyer returns the product and seller refunds the payment.

That's how it's always been and how I have always seen it done. If you go to a store and purchase something then decide you want to return it what do you do? You have to return the item and then you get a refund. You don't get your money back then say here's your item.

If you go to eBay what happens? Buyer sends payment, Seller sends product. Buyer is unsatisfied? Buyer returns product and then the seller refunds the money.

Go to any major pool site, Some of the guys on here are dealers of those sites. You buy something from them, Your unsatisfied, You have to send them the product back for them to inspect then you will get a refund.

Now if it's another story and the cue was described correctly and the buyer is stating that It's in different condition then it was sent in, there's a problem. Items must be returned in the same condition as received for a refund.

We all know this stuff so how can anyone say he should refund the money first?

so if i send him the money right now, and he disappears all together with cue and cash, which one of the posters would like to make it right for me?

Since everyone's is asking to compromise, here is what I can think of, I will paypal you half ($1025), send the cue to Raemondo and after he gets it, the other half will be sent to you. I am not going anywhere either and the cue isn't leaving the US.
 
Thingie -

I don't know either you or Hal personally but, you said in the message above that you would Paypal the money in one days time after you got it back from the seller.

You also said today that you have the money.

Stop stalling, send the money because that is what you said you would do. No other reason needed.

You are giving a bad name to the rest of us living outside the US.

Hal has over 3000 posts on AZB and is not about to ruin his reputation here by not returning your cue.
 
thingie said:
I have the cash. I will paypal you half ($1025), send the cue to Raemondo and after he gets it, the other half will be sent to you. I am not going anywhere either and the cue isn't leaving the US.

No. Give me a full refund and I'll ship the cue with delivery confirmation, signature required, etc.

I'll post the delivery confirmation number in this thread once the cue is shipped.

I WILL NOT RUN WITH YOUR CUE.

And yes you did tell me prior to my buying the cue that you would refund my money if I wasn't satisfied.
 
Hal said:
No. Give me a full refund and I'll ship the cue with delivery confirmation, signature required, etc.

I'll post the delivery confirmation number in this thread once the cue is shipped.

I WILL NOT RUN WITH YOUR CUE.

And yes you did tell me prior to my buying the cue that you would refund my money if I wasn't satisfied.
I would love to see the pm that I sent you on that cause I can't seem to find it. If you do, I don't see why I should hold the money back any longer.
 
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thingie said:
I would love to see the pm that I sent you on that cause I can't seem to find it. If you do, I don't see why I should hold the money back any longer.
The $1025 will be sent NOW.

Does this imply that you don't care if your customer is satisfied?:confused:
 
Hal said:
No. Give me a full refund and I'll ship the cue with delivery confirmation, signature required, etc.

I'll post the delivery confirmation number in this thread once the cue is shipped.

I WILL NOT RUN WITH YOUR CUE.

And yes you did tell me prior to my buying the cue that you would refund my money if I wasn't satisfied.

Thingie (Joel) - I think both you and Hal are trustworthy. You would be safe refunding him first. Athough this is unusual, it would be a show of good faith on your part.

Hal - everyone was quick to assume thingie was outright lying about the condition, but are we sure? Since the cue was in Singapore, it's possible the moisture content in the wood was high when it was shipped and the cue could also have been exposed to freezing temperatures in shipping. Singapore is very hot and humid, since it's near the equator and right on the ocean. The extreme change in temperature can play havoc with both the wood and the finish. I'm not saying this is what happened for sure , but it's entirely possible. I've seen ferrules pop right off cues being shipped in frozen weather, and a lot of cuemakers won't cut shafts in the winter.

I've had customers buy entire bedroom sets from Taiwan, which has more moderate weather than Singapore. In a few weeks after coming here, it's starts bending, popping breaking and twisting. Eventually it will warp itself apart as it acclimates. Even though the SW was made here, it can acclimate to a tropical climate and have to re-acclimate to our drier humidity. The humidity in my house right now is 45% in Southern California, in a cold weather city it would be even less, and I bet the average humuidty in Singapore is 75% even indoors. Not only is the warping possible, but the "ding" could have been an escaping bubble of air or water due to extreme temperature changes. All of this is adding up to me because I suspect thingie did not know of these defects.

Anyway, I don't want to get involved and I see no reason why this issue can't be quickly and easily resolved if we let cooler heads prevail.

Chris
 
ribdoner said:
Does this imply that you don't care if your customer is satisfied?:confused:
Nope, I'm simply referring to his statement, where he says that I promised him a full refund if he was not satisfied. There was no such agreement. I would have been willing to work things out if it was handled more maturely.

Anyways, I am trying to paypal him the full amount now.
 
I think it's fair not to flame or make unnecessary comments that is not helping to solve the issue.

GADawg said:
You are giving a bad name to the rest of us living outside the US.
 
thingie said:
Nope, I'm simply referring to his statement, where he says that I promised him a full refund if he was not satisfied. There was no such agreement. I would have been willing to work things out if it was handled more maturely.

Anyways, I am trying to paypal him the full amount now.

I applaud you! I don't many sellers who would issue a refund without getting the cue back first.

I just ask everyone to give the benefit of the doubt to Joel as we have with Hal. Don't jump to conclusions no matter how obvious they seem. I truly believe the warpage and popped finish happened because of weather and moisture extremes. I saw a guitar neck snap due to cold weather.

Hal, once the refund is received, please use the best and safest shipping method available so this adventure can be over for both of you.

Chris
 
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TATE said:
Thingie (Joel) - I think both you and Hal are trustworthy. You would be safe refunding him first. Athough this is unusual, it would be a show of good faith on your part.

Hal - everyone was quick to assume thingie was outright lying about the condition, but are we sure? Since the cue was in Singapore, it's possible the moisture content in the wood was high when it was shipped and the cue could also have been exposed to freezing temperatures in shipping. Singapore is very hot and humid, since it's near the equator and right on the ocean. The extreme change in temperature can play havoc with both the wood and the finish. I'm not saying this is what happened for sure , but it's entirely possible. I've seen ferrules pop right off cues being shipped in frozen weather, and a lot of cuemakers won't cut shafts in the winter.

I've had customers buy entire bedroom sets from Taiwan, which has more moderate weather than Singapore. In a few weeks after coming here, it's starts bending, popping breaking and twisting. Eventually it will warp itself apart as it acclimates. Even though the SW was made here, it can acclimate to a tropical climate and have to re-acclimate to our drier humidity. The humidity in my house right now is 45% in Southern California, in a cold weather city it would be even less, and I bet the average humuidty in Singapore is 75% even indoors. Not only is the warping possible, but the "ding" could have been an escaping bubble of air or water due to extreme temperature changes. All of this is adding up to me because I suspect thingie did not know of these defects.

Anyway, I don't want to get involved and I see no reason why this issue can't be quickly and easily resolved if we let cooler heads prevail.

Chris

This is a post that helps!!
 
TATE said:
I applaud you! I don't many sellers who would issue a refund without getting the cue back first.

I just ask everyone to give the benefit of the doubt to Joel as we have with Hal. Don't jump to conclusions no matter how obvious they seem. I truly believe the warpage and popped finish happened because of weather and moisture extremes. I saw a guitar neck snap due to cold weather.

Hal, please use the best and safest shipping method available so this adventure can be over for both of you.

Chris
I sent a cue to Japan once and the finish cracked. I mean a big old crack sideways across the cue. The finish acutally separated about 1/16 of an inch gap. The dealer I sold it to who played middle man to Japan swears all was packed good. I think the cue froze in the baggage compartment of a plane. I refinished it and sent it back and had no problems second time. Things happen. They used Fed Ex to ship it. It is often 40 below up there where the jets fly.
 
TATE said:
I applaud you! I don't many sellers who would issue a refund without getting the cue back first.

I just ask everyone to give the benefit of the doubt to Joel as we have with Hal. Don't jump to conclusions no matter how obvious they seem. I truly believe the warpage and popped finish happened because of weather and moisture extremes.

I saw a guitar neck snap due to cold weather.

Chris

I also applaud JOEL for satisfying HAL. I don't think many feel that JOEL shipped the cue in it's current condition, however, it is now what it is and HAL isn't satisfied.

We ARE rewarded for prior work and if HAL hadn't earned the reputation he has I would have been reluctant to pony up $ prior to getting my cue back, but, his reputation is what it is and I'm confident this will be resolved to everyone's liking.

Cudo's to you JOEL
 
Joel, it's rare that I'll take such a strong position without hearing fom all concerned. Like most others here, I am guilty of filling in the blanks without knowing all the facts.

Since there was no prior agreement between you and Hal regarding a potential refund, most, if not all, of my previous post is incongruous with the actual circumstances.

Though this deal could have been handled differently by all involved, my one-sided post was unfair and inappropriate.

-von

thingie said:
Nope, I'm simply referring to his statement, where he says that I promised him a full refund if he was not satisfied. There was no such agreement. I would have been willing to work things out if it was handled more maturely.

Anyways, I am trying to paypal him the full amount now.
 
Well as I mentioned before, both well reputable stand up guys take a step back and things can be settle quickly and amicably. Cheers to all.
 
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