Follow: What goes forward will come back!

Billy_Bob

Billy_Bob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing 8-ball and the 8 was on the short rail. I was shooting my last ball in going into the corner toward the opposite end of the table.

My opponent smugly said; "You will need a massive amount of draw to get back on that 8!"

I said; "No I won't!"

Instead I shot the ball in with a lot of *follow*. The cue ball continued forward after the shot, hit the far short rail, than came back to leave me good position on the 8. (What goes forward will hit the rail and come back.)

My opponent says after my shot... "Whatever!"


Also what goes forward, then comes back, can then go forward again....
(Lag speed or lag speed and a half.)

Sometimes I have a long shot which I am not sure I will make and I want to leave the cue ball at the same end of the table (safety). But it is a thin cut shot and the cue ball will come flying back leaving my opponent with an easy shot.

Most players know what speed to use for a lag shot. So to get the cue ball to come back with a thin cut, just shoot with lag speed. Or to get the cue ball to come back, then return to the far rail, shoot with lag speed *plus* 1/2 additional lag speed.

So you have a long shot thin cut, but want to leave the cue ball at the far end of the table after your shot. Shoot with lag speed plus 1/2 lag speed, then the cue ball hits the far short rail after the shot, returns to hit the near short rail, then goes back to the far short rail. Easy!

So instead of trying to slow the ball down, speed it up! It will come back to where you want it...
 
But why not just draw it?

I'm not saying following going into the rail isnt a good position move, but if your draw and follow are equal(which they should be barring any mental problems associated with draw), either one should be equally fine to get position.

Granted I dont know what kind of cut you had, but if its straight in and you have to juice it forward or back to get position, I'd go with whichever moves the cueball the least(probably draw).
 
MacGyver said:
But why not just draw it?

I'm not saying following going into the rail isnt a good position move, but if your draw and follow are equal(which they should be barring any mental problems associated with draw), either one should be equally fine to get position.

Granted I dont know what kind of cut you had, but if its straight in and you have to juice it forward or back to get position, I'd go with whichever moves the cueball the least(probably draw).
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I assumed from his description that there was a lot of distance between the cue ball and object ball, which would generally make follow the easier shot.
 
I disagree...

Follow and draw are the same on a straight in shot, they are each about hitting the cueball X mm's from center with a good follow through stroke.

I think players FAR too often get "psyched" by a draw shot and think them harder, when in reality its the same as any other shot, centerball, english or follow.

Just look at the number of "Why can't I do draw" threads, etc.

People stab the ball instead of following through, people jerking the tip up from fear of miscue, not delivering a smooth stroke, etc.....

I think all pool players and instructors and whatnot need to "get over" the draw shot and accept it as just another shot no harder or easier.
 
MacGyver said:
I disagree...

Follow and draw are the same on a straight in shot, they are each about hitting the cueball X mm's from center with a good follow through stroke.

I think players FAR too often get "psyched" by a draw shot and think them harder, when in reality its the same as any other shot, centerball, english or follow.

Just look at the number of "Why can't I do draw" threads, etc.

People stab the ball instead of following through, people jerking the tip up from fear of miscue, not delivering a smooth stroke, etc.....

I think all pool players and instructors and whatnot need to "get over" the draw shot and accept it as just another shot no harder or easier.
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Follow allows the cue ball to take a more natural path after the collision (forward). Making the cueball stop and then begin to back up is not a natural path and, therefore, requries additional effort (speed). I believe this would be much more pronounced when the cue ball and object ball are farther apart.

I am not a physics major so I could be wrong, but this is my initial thought.
 
On a straight in shot, the cueball is STOPPED at contact, forward and back are both equally natural.

Granted on a *non* straight in shot where the tangent is forward from where you want to end up, follow might be more "natural", but at the same time if the tangent is pointing towards your end spot then draw would be more natural....

I was talking about a straight in shot, the cue ball stopping happen at impact regardless of spin, follow and draw would both take over equally at that point.

Granted at a larger distance the friction of the cueball won't detiorate follow as much as draw...

I'm just trying to say that often many people give draw some sort of mystical quality regarding difficulty when in reality its no different than centerball or follow... you need to be able to use Draw just as much as follow or centerball.

In certain situations, certainly follow might be the better choice, but if you are given the choice between going 3/4 a table with draw and 1 and 1/4 a table length with follow, and your only thinking is "Wow draw sure is hard I better use follow because its easier" then thats the wrong way to look at it.

I say just use the most efficent path that moves the cueball the least, and don't shy away from any english or draw that is needed just because you might think follow is easier.
 
MacGyver said:
On a straight in shot, the cueball is STOPPED at contact, forward and back are both equally natural.

Granted on a *non* straight in shot where the tangent is forward from where you want to end up, follow might be more "natural", but at the same time if the tangent is pointing towards your end spot then draw would be more natural....

I was talking about a straight in shot, the cue ball stopping happen at impact regardless of spin, follow and draw would both take over equally at that point.

Granted at a larger distance the friction of the cueball won't detiorate follow as much as draw...

I'm just trying to say that often many people give draw some sort of mystical quality regarding difficulty when in reality its no different than centerball or follow... you need to be able to use Draw just as much as follow or centerball.

In certain situations, certainly follow might be the better choice, but if you are given the choice between going 3/4 a table with draw and 1 and 1/4 a table length with follow, and your only thinking is "Wow draw sure is hard I better use follow because its easier" then thats the wrong way to look at it.

I say just use the most efficent path that moves the cueball the least, and don't shy away from any english or draw that is needed just because you might think follow is easier.
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I agree with everything you are saying here. I don't think one is necessarily easier than the other; however, for certain shots one can be the "better" shot.
 
MacGyver said:
On a straight in shot, the cueball is STOPPED at contact, forward and back are both equally natural.

Granted on a *non* straight in shot where the tangent is forward from where you want to end up, follow might be more "natural", but at the same time if the tangent is pointing towards your end spot then draw would be more natural....

I was talking about a straight in shot, the cue ball stopping happen at impact regardless of spin, follow and draw would both take over equally at that point.

Granted at a larger distance the friction of the cueball won't detiorate follow as much as draw...

I'm just trying to say that often many people give draw some sort of mystical quality regarding difficulty when in reality its no different than centerball or follow... you need to be able to use Draw just as much as follow or centerball.

In certain situations, certainly follow might be the better choice, but if you are given the choice between going 3/4 a table with draw and 1 and 1/4 a table length with follow, and your only thinking is "Wow draw sure is hard I better use follow because its easier" then thats the wrong way to look at it.

I say just use the most efficent path that moves the cueball the least, and don't shy away from any english or draw that is needed just because you might think follow is easier.
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On some of the tables I play on with triple shimmed pockets the way to go with many shots is by following and not drawing. Certain shots won't pot on this table that would drop on others. Plus the cloth is very slow. It all adds up to a missed ball if you don't hit it just right, and shooting with draw will zing the object ball when it needs a gentler touch, which follow can often provide.

Flex
 
MacGyver said:
... Granted at a larger distance the friction of the cueball won't deteriorate follow as much as draw...
...
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There is a common misconception here. About the best you can do with follow is to start the cue ball out rolling smoothly. It is very difficult to get "overspin" on the cue ball. Very few players will ever hit high enough to get overspin, and most of the time it is pointless to do so as you are very likely to miscue and if there is any distance between the cue ball and the object ball, it will turn into smooth rolling before contact.

On most tables and for most shots, you have to hit the cue ball much harder to move the cue ball a given distance with draw than to move it the same distance with follow. An exception is if you are playing on slippery (new) cloth and have a very short shot. Then draw and follow need about the same power for a given distance to position.
 
i know u are hitting the balls to hard. i just know it. i remember i read this line before and its the first thing that came up when i read your post.
 
I might be completely off base here Bob, but what about shots where the cue "hugs" a cushion?

For instance a shot where you hit a hanger in and then send the cue to make 2-3 "bounces" against the same rail using a lot of follow(or even a single "bounce" just to keep it against the rail)

Is this not due to having overspin follow on the ball?

If it is then i'd question the "few players" thing because I've done a couple shots where the cue will bounce 3 times down the long rail and seen others keep it "stuck" to the short rail by hitting hard with follow so it comes off the rail and then squats or even goes back to the rail.

if not then sorry for the stupid comment :)
 
It's a Matter of Control

At my skill level, I find that I have more control over position using follow rather than draw.

There's more than one way to skin a cat....(sorry cat lovers)... I think everyone will agree that for most shots on the table there are a variety of ways to hit it and sink it. We chose the one that we are most comfortable with and that will give us position on the next shot....So if I make the same shot as you using follow and end up with equally good shape for the 8 as you did when you used draw, then what difference is there?

Shoot your game and your shot. Your friend doesn't know what you think you can or can't do. Execute your plan.

McCue Banger McCue
 
Billy_Bob said:
(snip)

So instead of trying to slow the ball down, speed it up! It will come back to where you want it...
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Great advice...especially on a barbox. I see players all the time try to hold up a ball with a super-soft stroke or reverse english, but it goes about 2" too far and hooks 'em. The higher percentage shot is sometimes to let natural roll help you, even if the cueball travels farther than one would normally like it to. Each shot requries its own analysis, however, and rules of thumb don't always work.

Jeff Livingston
 
Solartje said:
i know u are hitting the balls to hard. i just know it. i remember i read this line before and its the first thing that came up when i read your post.
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Bert Kinister says it in his "60 Minute Workout for 9 Ball" tape.

Flex
 
I think that for most players, follow is easier to control and visualize, as it is more closely related to the path of the cueball when hit dead center, especially on a long shot (natural rolling follow). I'm perfectly comfortable with draw, but if I have a more-or-less equally difficult follow shot to accomplish the same position as draw, I will generally use follow.

For most beginner/intermediate players, being more comfortable with follow as opposed to draw is a perfectly good reason to choose follow over draw, in competition for example. They should certainly get back home and continue to practice draw shots until that comfort level disparity is gone... But there's nothing wrong with relying on your stronger skills to get the job done. If you feel you are terrible at long draw shots, you would be crazy to use them in competition when there is a follow shot that makes the cueball travel a bit further or hit an extra rail or two.
 
chefjeff said:
...I see players all the time try to hold up a ball with a super-soft stroke or reverse english, but it goes about 2" too far and hooks 'em...
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Yes, the reason for my post is I frequently see people trying to do the impossible. And if they were to think about where the cue ball will naturally roll after the shot, they would see that it will hit a rail then come back to where they need it for their next shot. Or with a little more speed, it will hit a rail, then another rail, then stop in a good spot.

Of course you need to practice shooting in balls with follow and getting the cue ball to follow different distances after the shot. Same with draw. Shoot shots with draw and get cue ball to come back different distances.

With practice, you can do both many times. Go forwards (hit rail and return) or backwards (come directly back) to leave the cue ball where you want.
 
MacGyver said:
I might be completely off base here Bob, but what about shots where the cue "hugs" a cushion?

For instance a shot where you hit a hanger in and then send the cue to make 2-3 "bounces" against the same rail using a lot of follow(or even a single "bounce" just to keep it against the rail)

Is this not due to having overspin follow on the ball?

If it is then i'd question the "few players" thing because I've done a couple shots where the cue will bounce 3 times down the long rail and seen others keep it "stuck" to the short rail by hitting hard with follow so it comes off the rail and then squats or even goes back to the rail.
[...]
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Yes, that's overspin. But it's not what Bob is talking about. Few players achieve overspin on the cueball by hitting it with a stick.

Those shots you're talking about did not have overspin on the cueball until a nearly full hit on an object ball robbed them of most of their speed without robbing them of their topspin. That's cheating.

mike page
fargo
 
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