For the Science Guys #1

lfigueroa said:
Joey, I like your theory about the additional squirt at high speed. But again, I'm not sure the grip, tight or loose, is in play.

Lou Figueroa[/QUOTE

I'm not sure what the tight grip does but it does something different. Try banking that shot at one half of a ball off of the rail and one and a half balls away from the corner pocket with cue ball parallel (bank the OB one rail with tight grip shooting hard and also with a loose grip) The loose grip will frequently create a double kiss whereas the tight grip allows the cue ball to get out of the OB's way and bank into the hole with a whole lot more frequency. It may be simply the speed changing but it could also be that jacking up like that allows you to put more draw on the CB, helping it get out of the way of the banking OB.

As to the good player's 3 rail shot, when in the hell is he going to shoot that? :D

JoeyA
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lfigueroa said:
I think I agree, but I was hoping the slide rule and pocket protector set would weigh in with some big steaming piles of equations. Or at least a high speed video or two :-)
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There is a place for equations and high-speed videos. This is certainly not one of those places.

If you want to hit the ball harder or softer, why don't you just use more or less cue speed. I suspect tightening the grip could have different effects for different people, and I would think it would not be good advice for most people.

Dave
 
dr_dave said:
There is a place for equations and high-speed videos. This is certainly not one of those places.

If you want to hit the ball harder or softer, why don't you just use more or less cue speed. I suspect tightening the grip could have different effects for different people, and I would think it would not be good advice for most people.

Dave
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You give some very good advice Dave but I would add a caveat lector to your opinon about tightening the grip not being good advice for most people.

I have shown people the results of tightening the grip on a one rail bank and these are for the most part very average players and they can see the benefit of doing so on particular shots.

I believe that each person should try different techniques to see what works for them. Your opinion is that holding the cue tightly for certain shots is not in the best interest of most people and while I respect your opinion, I strongly disagree.

Exploring unusual techniques gives me first-hand information as to whether or not it can work for me.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I have shown people the results of tightening the grip on a one rail bank and these are for the most part very average players and they can see the benefit of doing so on particular shots.
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What benefits are you seeing? Are they making the shots more often then with a relaxed grip? Are the shot speeds much different between the two cases?

Are they tightening the grip during the shot or before? If during, is the tightening forcing them to hit lower on the CB then they realize (because when you tighten the grip, the tip tends to drop, if you don't drop your elbow)?

What effects do you think the tightening has that can't be achieved without the tightening? Is the tightening constraining their stroke, forcing them to use a more compact stroke; and is this helping them be more accurate? Is the tight grip forcing them to drop their elbow, allowing them to create more power?

Sorry, for all of the questions. I could probably ask 10 or 20 more. However, if something has a beneficial outcome, there must be a reasonable explanation, and this explanation might help people teach and learn better.

Thanks,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
What benefits are you seeing? Are they making the shots more often then with a relaxed grip? Are the shot speeds much different between the two cases?

Are they tightening the grip during the shot or before? If during, is the tightening forcing them to hit lower on the CB then they realize (because when you tighten the grip, the tip tends to drop, if you don't drop your elbow)?

What effects do you think the tightening has that can't be achieved without the tightening? Is the tightening constraining their stroke, forcing them to use a more compact stroke; and is this helping them be more accurate? Is the tight grip forcing them to drop their elbow, allowing them to create more power?

Sorry, for all of the questions. I could probably ask 10 or 20 more. However, if something has a beneficial outcome, there must be a reasonable explanation, and this explanation might help people teach and learn better.

Thanks,
Dave
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Dave,
I can't ask the other players that tried this shot. Please note this is the shot that I morphed from Lou's 3 railer to a one railer.

1. The shot was made more consistently using a short, quick, jacked up stroke WITH A TIGHT GRIP before the stroke, not during the stroke.
2. I think the cue ball cannot be stopped as easily with a loose grip, at least I was not able to do so. When I tried to make this shot with a loose grip I almost always double kissed the OB.
3. There is virtually no elbow drop as the stroke is VERY SHORT IN LENGTH.
4. When I use a loose grip on this shot I think that I am so afraid of double kissing (because of experience) that I could not accurately hit the cue ball and send it to it's needed destination to pocket the OB.

That's it, I'm in retirement. It's too difficult to describe what is happening when a shot is made. LOL/
JoeyA



CueTable Help

 
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JoeyA said:
I didn't pay close enough attention to Lou's diagram and didn't realize that he was banking it three rails. LOL that's the only reason that my shot was a little tougher is that I banked it one rail and put the object ball closer to the rail & a little closer to the corner pocket and the CB on the same line as the OB. Well, now I am certain the science guys might be able to give some thoughts but they won't be trying the three railer.
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Joey, set the shot up in such a way that it can't be banked one rail. Then see how to best hit it in order to make it three rails.

Doc
 
One Railer

gulfportdoc said:
Joey, set the shot up in such a way that it can't be banked one rail. Then see how to best hit it in order to make it three rails.

Doc
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I'm not going to shoot that shot 3 rails unless it is a proposition shot and I don't typically do those. I did show how the one railer looks. It appears that there isn't enough room for the OB to bank and the CB to get out of the way of the OB but it does.

Sorry for the hijack, Lou.
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I didn't pay close enough attention to Lou's diagram and didn't realize that he was banking it three rails. LOL ... Well, now I am certain the science guys might be able to give some thoughts but they won't be trying the three railer.
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Joey,

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I (being what you might call a "science guy") certainly have tried this type of shot before. For example, see:


Regards,
Dave

PS: You sure seem to be anti science lately, or am I reading you wrongly?
 
Science Guys and Whackos.

dr_dave said:
Joey,

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I (being what you might call a "science guy") certainly have tried this type of shot before. For example, see:


Regards,
Dave

PS: You sure seem to be anti science lately, or am I reading you wrongly?
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NO! I am not anti-science at all.

The only thing I am anti about is billiard instructors using the AZ Billiard Main Forum as a recruiting ground for their customers but all they are giving their prospects are a few kernels of corn. :( Hopefully, their future engagements on the forum will change my perspective.

You and several other instructors provide a Cornucopia of regular delights to all the Main Forum members and deserve all the praise you get. :thumbup:


BTW, where am I being anti-science? I'd like to know what you view in my posts as anti-science.

I just don't see anyone except the most anal poolplayers practicing or shooting a 3 rail bank shot with such limited real-time use.

If you are shooting these type of shots, I haven't seen them on your website and if you are offended by my remarks, you have my apology. I'll have to prowl around on your website more often. Thanks for the link.

If you are shooting these type of shots, then you aren't just a science guy but you are one of us whackos who practices shots that they will probably only use once every leap year, if that.

Now you can be happy and consider yourself a science guy and a whacko. :D J/k Having some fun.

C Ya,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
NO! I am not anti-science at all.
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I'm glad, because it is uncool to be anti-science. :cool:

JoeyA said:
The only thing I am anti about is billiard instructors using the AZ Billiard Main Forum as a recruiting ground for their customers but all they are giving their prospects are a few kernels of corn. :( Hopefully, their future engagements on the forum will change my perspective.
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I agree, but what does this have to do with "science guys?"

JoeyA said:
You and several other instructors provide a Cornucopia of regular delights to all the Main Forum members and deserve all the praise you get. :thumbup:
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Thank you.

JoeyA said:
BTW, where am I being anti-science? I'd like to know what you view in my posts as anti-science.
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I was just getting a sense that you were making fun of, and even minimizing, the "science guys" on the forum. I guess this isn't being "anti science." Sorry for my exaggeration. I guess I was passively making fun of the "science minimizing guys" with my exaggeration. :sorry:

JoeyA said:
I just don't see anyone except the most anal poolplayers practicing or shooting a 3 rail bank shot with such limited real-time use.

If you are shooting these type of shots, I haven't seen them on your website and if you are offended by my remarks, you have my apology. I'll have to prowl around on your website more often. Thanks for the link.

If you are shooting these type of shots, then you aren't just a science guy but you are one of us whackos who practices shots that they will probably only use once every leap year, if that.
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I certainly don't "practice" this type of shot. With this sort of shot, I hit it enough times to make it work for video, for demonstration and explanation purposes only. Then I move on to more useful and interesting stuff.

JoeyA said:
Now you can be happy and consider yourself a science guy and a whacko. :D J/k Having some fun.
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I guess I don't mind being called a "science guy" and a "whacko" every once in a while. :o

Catch you later,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think the Jacksonville Iron Willie grip was "softened" to see if it had any unusual effect, but it didn't.

I don't think gripping tighter can appreciably "stiffen" the connection between the hand and the cue.

Anyway, I don't think an appreciably stiffer connection would do anything that simply hitting a little harder wouldn't do.

pj
chgo
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Agreed.

Lou Figueroa
 
3kushn said:
My 2c. Slightly off topic but.

A tight grip does influence the cue ball.
Tightening the grip at impact does influence the CB.

INDIRECTLY.

What it might do to an OB is probably nothing.

I say indirectly because we can't argue that cue action changes with grip tightness. Why are we told to have a light grip? I presume for better cue action allowing, the cue to do it's job? The argument that the ball doesn't know how tight the wrist is, because the ball has left the scene, can also be made for follow through. Good follow through is also advised regardless of the fact that the ball is gone.

Here's an example of a shot where I may tighten the grip just prior to impact. The CB line flattens.

http://CueTable.com/C/?@01ALcX4BOJH3CGjG1ULcX3UGJr3UcAP3UcAP4USKs4UcAL4UPoP4UPoP4UPoP1uBGA@
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I agree that all the falderal at the grip end probably does nothing to the OB. As far as the CB is concerned, really, isn't tightening your grip mostly about limiting the fluidity of the stroke? IOW, any changes are probably not good, or can be gained via other techniques.

Lou Figueroa
where are all those
super knowledgable instructors
when you need them :-)
 
JoeyA said:
lfigueroa said:
Joey, I like your theory about the additional squirt at high speed. But again, I'm not sure the grip, tight or loose, is in play.

Lou Figueroa[/QUOTE

I'm not sure what the tight grip does but it does something different. Try banking that shot at one half of a ball off of the rail and one and a half balls away from the corner pocket with cue ball parallel (bank the OB one rail with tight grip shooting hard and also with a loose grip) The loose grip will frequently create a double kiss whereas the tight grip allows the cue ball to get out of the OB's way and bank into the hole with a whole lot more frequency. It may be simply the speed changing but it could also be that jacking up like that allows you to put more draw on the CB, helping it get out of the way of the banking OB.

As to the good player's 3 rail shot, when in the hell is he going to shoot that? :D

JoeyA
Click to expand...


Joey, I've tried the shot and a tighter grip does change things. But at least for me, here's why: set up the shot and, assuming a red circle CB, put the circle in the middle, to use as a reference point. Now get into shooting position for the shot and look at the your cue tip and the CB. Then squeeze the butt.

For me, what happens when I do this is that my cue tip moves slightly down and to the right and the angle of the cue is slightly altered. And, at high speed to get the OB three rails, the effects of those changes creates a change in the outcome of the shot.

Like I said, that's just me.

Lou Figueroa
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dr_dave said:
There is a place for equations and high-speed videos. This is certainly not one of those places.

If you want to hit the ball harder or softer, why don't you just use more or less cue speed. I suspect tightening the grip could have different effects for different people, and I would think it would not be good advice for most people.

Dave
Click to expand...


Well, I was being a bit facetious. I guess science guys don't do facetious :-)

In a more straight laced vein, all I was asking was if changing the grip could influence the OB via more CIT.

Lou Figueroa
 
JoeyA said:
I'm not going to shoot that shot 3 rails unless it is a proposition shot and I don't typically do those. I did show how the one railer looks. It appears that there isn't enough room for the OB to bank and the CB to get out of the way of the OB but it does.

Sorry for the hijack, Lou.
JoeyA
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No problemo. Hijack away. I've never understood why guys get upset when a conversation wanders a bit anyway.

The thing about shooting the three-railer is that some guys will tell you that it was the only shot available and that they shot it against some guy a million years ago, made it and ran eight and out. Of course they never tell you about the ten times they tried and the shot went ka-blooey and the udder guy ran eight and out :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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