Forfeit One's Integrity to Win a Game?

[akaTrigger]

She saw something that she believed was a foul, tried to address it, and believes she was disrespected for it.

Thank you, LC3. One of the more logical responses I've seen so far in this thread.

Lisa, I feel your pain. I really do. We are all looking at it from the outside, so we see it differently than what you are feeling. But I can empathize with your words and I can sense how upset you are. You feel they deliberately cheated. I would be upset, also.

I am sorry you had such a bad experience that you don't want to play league anymore. I wish the others in this thread would give you some slack. They need to realize that obviously this situation upset you that much that you don't want to play league anymore and that you also walked out.

Guess what people? She's human and she was super upset. Was she right or wrong? Doesn't matter. What matters is she felt cheated and that was her reaction AFTER trying to get it resolved.

Anyway, enough of my myers-briggs response. I'm sorry for your crappy night, Lisa.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I guess the opinions in this thread didn't go the way the OP wanted, either, so she is walking out on this thread too


Eric

Really E? There was really nothing more to say. I am not going to beat my head against the wall repeating myself when people cannot take the time to completely read and comprehend my original post.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I'm probably wrong but who knows. It just seemed to me that by the time the other team was approached the game was already over. In any event I still think its silly to walk out over something like that. The other team had BIH......

Again, as the co-captain, I have the right to call the obvious foul, which I did as it was occurring, not after the fact. What should have happened at that moment was all play should've stopped, as is customary, until the issue was resolved. Instead, I was ignored, and the shot on the 1 ball was snapped off, with the 8 apparently shortly to follow....which I did not even see the 8 ball shot, as I was already attempting to get my captain's attention after my initial call, as he was involved in a conversation with another team member. The other team was seated at a table easily 20 feet from the pool table itself, so likely about 28 feet from our team's table, which was a 6ft table running parallel to the pool table, on the opposite side....I was at one end, and the captain was at the other. There was also a jukebox playing at the time, but not overly loud, or someone would've complained.

I may have exhibited signs of poor sportsmanship for leaving....but they equally exhibited poor sportsmanship for ignoring the call and snapping the shot off, knowing that my captain wasn't paying attention and I was trying to get his attention from his conversation to make him aware of the call.

It shouldn't matter if the game was almost over...so you're saying that one should avoid calling a foul simply because the game may soon be over...just let the other team get away with it? You're assuming they would have won the game...but how many times have we all seen a BIH shot totally tanked...or for that matter, an easy shot on the 8 ball blown? So, we should just all roll over and lick our nutsacks because your opponent may/should win the game?

 

[ridewiththewind]

Thank you, LC3. One of the more logical responses I've seen so far in this thread.

Lisa, I feel your pain. I really do. We are all looking at it from the outside, so we see it differently than what you are feeling. But I can empathize with your words and I can sense how upset you are. You feel they deliberately cheated. I would be upset, also.

I am sorry you had such a bad experience that you don't want to play league anymore. I wish the others in this thread would give you some slack. They need to realize that obviously this situation upset you that much that you don't want to play league anymore and that you also walked out.

Guess what people? She's human and she was super upset. Was she right or wrong? Doesn't matter. What matters is she felt cheated and that was her reaction AFTER trying to get it resolved.

Anyway, enough of my myers-briggs response. I'm sorry for your crappy night, Lisa.

Thanks Trigger...it is much appreciated. Just wish people would quit reading into some posts more than is actually there. I was looking for confirmation on the ruling for which the foul was called....not to embarrass anyone....or else I would have named names and locations. It was never about that.

Instead, I get called pretty much a liar by a league official who couldn't be bothered to actually involve themselves in the conversation concerning the call. The only person involved in that conversation from the opposing team was the player who was called up for advice, whom I felt actually committed the foul.

Then to be vilified here, for of all reasons, walking out...completely deflecting from the true intent of the original post.

My beef with the league goes beyond this incident...there have been issues in the past with the league's unwillingness to deal with incidences which have arisen. What point are rules/by-laws if they are not going to be enforced when an infraction occurs? I was threatened with bodily harm last year if I did call a shot-clock foul, after repeated warnings to the offender, who maliciously continued the behavior. It got so bad that that teams own co-captain walked out of the match and league. Yet, there was nothing done by the league...no repercussions or sanctions whatsoever. During play-offs, over half of my team was involved in a multi-car accident en route to the match....I was still forced to forfeit games due to not having a full roster. I was told that re-scheduling would be impossible. And that's not even all of it.

Sadly, in my immediate area, the leagues are kinda run like an 'old boys club'...there are just some folks who don't have to answer to the rules like everyone else. I feel that my decision to leave the league is an appropriate one for me, as I can no longer abide the favoritism.

Lisa

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Again, as the co-captain, I have the right to call the obvious foul, which I did as it was occurring, not after the fact. What should have happened at that moment was all play should've stopped, as is customary, until the issue was resolved. Instead, I was ignored, and the shot on the 1 ball was snapped off, with the 8 apparently shortly to follow....which I did not even see the 8 ball shot, as I was already attempting to get my captain's attention after my initial call, as he was involved in a conversation with another team member. The other team was seated at a table easily 20 feet from the pool table itself, so likely about 28 feet from our team's table, which was a 6ft table running parallel to the pool table, on the opposite side....I was at one end, and the captain was at the other. There was also a jukebox playing at the time, but not overly loud, or someone would've complained.

I may have exhibited signs of poor sportsmanship for leaving....but they equally exhibited poor sportsmanship for ignoring the call and snapping the shot off, knowing that my captain wasn't paying attention and I was trying to get his attention from his conversation to make him aware of the call.

It shouldn't matter if the game was almost over...so you're saying that one should avoid calling a foul simply because the game may soon be over...just let the other team get away with it? You're assuming they would have won the game...but how many times have we all seen a BIH shot totally tanked...or for that matter, an easy shot on the 8 ball blown? So, we should just all roll over and lick our nutsacks because your opponent may/should win the game?

I was under the impression that you didn't call a foul on the other team but it was more of a question to your captain. That does make a difference if they ignored you, especially if it is against the rules for another player to place the BIH. Play should have paused until a ruling was made.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't call a foul because the game is almost over. What I meant is that if you call the foul after the game is over you can't re-rack the balls to the previous position since the game is over.

 

[RRfireblade]

I can definitely understand you felt disrespected. And you very well may have been but that wasn't the point implied as to why this thread was started.

The bottom line is you played your best pool and were looking at defeat with bih and 2 hangers on the table. It was all over and I'm sure that sucked. I can't imagine winning the match at that point thru a technicality would really have left you fullfilled. Only you can answer that.

Your thread stated winning at the cost of integrity, there's a lot to be said for losing with integrity as well. Unfortunately it sounds like your lost there too. I'm sorry about that. Really.

Looking back the answer is that YOU as co captain should have called "foul" and nothing else and then walked to the table and stopped play. That's how its done. Its not up to the opponents to be like " what did she say? Or mean? Its your responsibility.

Second, its debatable by those that were present, that any foul was actually made. Even what specific set of rules were in play and any ammendments. In "most" doubles and team formats there is some coaching allowed so there may have been precident. Either way if no judgment could have been made then play would have continued and the result would have still been the same


Try and see the bigger picture. Its a pool match, virtually meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Learn from it, grow as player and person and move on. Don't lose your integrity over sour grapes and regret.

That's not what you want people remember about you as a player.

 

[Marie's husband]

Lisa,

This is amazing how much drama has been created over none of you playing in this league actually knowing the rules.

If there was a question about the rules then you should have stopped knitting and spoke up to the player ready to shoot so the game would be put on hold until the rule infraction that you suspect happened could have been verified.

When are you going to support your claim that it is a foul? All you have to do is post that rules infraction on here and then you will be %100 correct that it is a foul.

Then you are going to have to prove that you actually called a foul and not just said "I dont think your allowed to do that". The only thing that means is that you are not sure if its a foul or not and that means you never called a foul,,,,you were thinking about it, but never actually did it until after the game was complete.


If you feel that it falls under the "marking of the table rule" that is a far stretch from what that rule is in place for.

I do know all players involved in this situation and even though they may be considered good players in this league, they are only B level players so dont make it seem like these players are top players that have a wide knowledge of the game because they dont.

As far as this team being a stacked team, no freaking way. I throw the Bull#### flag up on that one, all of these players are B players and work as a team. None of them have the knowledge of the game and ability to run balls to be considered a stacked team, but as a collective group they can compete and win against most other B player teams since they dont allow there ego's to get in the way of asking each other for help.

For you to put out that thes players forfeit their integrity or that they cheat to win is incorrect and way off base to even say anything like that. I have played with these players for many years and was actually married to the person that asked for coaching for 18 years (noticed I said was). The one thing I can say for sure is that if there was a question about a ruling and it was actually brought up to the shooters attention prior to shooting the shot, the shot would have not been taken until the ruling was settled. Oh, and to verify your post I actually had to have a her come to the house to read them so I got two sides of the story, and wow, how different each persons story is is amazing.

I honestly feel that you should be apologizing to this team for what you have said. You have no right in making a judgement on thier integrity or calling them a cheat publically when this situation was caused by you and them collectively by not knowing the rules or thinking there was such a rule and by you not properly calling a foul or even afterwards, not properly filing a grievence.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I can definitely understand you felt disrespected. And you very well may have been but that wasn't the point implied as to why this thread was started.

The bottom line is you played your best pool and were looking at defeat with bih and 2 hangers on the table. It was all over and I'm sure that sucked. I can't imagine winning the match at that point thru a technicality would really have left you fullfilled. Only you can answer that.

Your thread stated winning at the cost of integrity, there's a lot to be said for losing with integrity as well. Unfortunately it sounds like your lost there too. I'm sorry about that. Really.

Looking back the answer is that YOU as co captain should have called "foul" and nothing else and then walked to the table and stopped play. That's how its done. Its not up to the opponents to be like " what did she say? Or mean? Its your responsibility.

Second, its debatable by those that were present, that any foul was actually made. Even what specific set of rules were in play and any ammendments. In "most" doubles and team formats there is some coaching allowed so there may have been precident. Either way if no judgment could have been made then play would have continued and the result would have still been the same


Try and see the bigger picture. Its a pool match, virtually meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Learn from it, grow as player and person and move on. Don't lose your integrity over sour grapes and regret.

That's not what you want people remember about you as a player.

Again....no sour grapes....I could've cared less about whether it was a win or a loss...wasn't even thinking about that when I made the call...just that it seemed all wrong....he might as well have taken the shot for her too.

This has never been legal in other leagues I have played in.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Lisa,

This is amazing how much drama has been created over none of you playing in this league actually knowing the rules.

If there was a question about the rules then you should have stopped knitting and spoke up to the player ready to shoot so the game would be put on hold until the rule infraction that you suspect happened could have been verified.

When are you going to support your claim that it is a foul? All you have to do is post that rules infraction on here and then you will be %100 correct that it is a foul.

Then you are going to have to prove that you actually called a foul and not just said "I dont think your allowed to do that". The only thing that means is that you are not sure if its a foul or not and that means you never called a foul,,,,you were thinking about it, but never actually did it until after the game was complete.


If you feel that it falls under the "marking of the table rule" that is a far stretch from what that rule is in place for.

I do know all players involved in this situation and even though they may be considered good players in this league, they are only B level players so dont make it seem like these players are top players that have a wide knowledge of the game because they dont.

As far as this team being a stacked team, no freaking way. I throw the Bull#### flag up on that one, all of these players are B players and work as a team. None of them have the knowledge of the game and ability to run balls to be considered a stacked team, but as a collective group they can compete and win against most other B player teams since they dont allow there ego's to get in the way of asking each other for help.

For you to put out that thes players forfeit their integrity or that they cheat to win is incorrect and way off base to even say anything like that. I have played with these players for many years and was actually married to the person that asked for coaching for 18 years (noticed I said was). The one thing I can say for sure is that if there was a question about a ruling and it was actually brought up to the shooters attention prior to shooting the shot, the shot would have not been taken until the ruling was settled. Oh, and to verify your post I actually had to have a her come to the house to read them so I got two sides of the story, and wow, how different each persons story is is amazing.

I honestly feel that you should be apologizing to this team for what you have said. You have no right in making a judgement on thier integrity or calling them a cheat publically when this situation was caused by you and them collectively by not knowing the rules or thinking there was such a rule and by you not properly calling a foul or even afterwards, not properly filing a grievence.

Again, i didn't mention any names and will NOT apologize for NOT outing anyone....y'all chose to make it personal.

The team is most certainly 'stacked'...and most of the other teams on the league think so.....you know, all the other teams in the league besides just us.

I am owed an apology for a league official basically calling me a liar...especially since she was not involved in the dispute...and the actual shooter didn't involve herself either. You have to actually be a participant in a conversation to refute it.

BTW...I didn't say it was marking the table....that actually came from the president of the league, as he stated to both myself and my captain that he would have most certainly had an issue with the incident himself. Several other players have also stated they would've taken issue with the incident.

The fact is, y'all played with a loophole....and knew it. My integrity is fine....I KNOW I have never had to resort to what some may construe as less than honorable tactics to win a game. If I play well, I win (most times), if I don't, I won't...pretty simple. If y'all need to play a loophole to win....good on ya.....I'm done.

Lisa

PS...I have now sent a message to Mark Griffin, the owner of the BCAPL for final clarification.

 

[RRfireblade]

Again....no sour grapes....I could've cared less about whether it was a win or a loss...wasn't even thinking about that when I made the call...just that it seemed all wrong....he might as well have taken the shot for her too.

This has never been legal in other leagues I have played in.

I believe the question remains , unless I missed it , has any rep from that league stated there was a rule infraction? As many other have stated coaching IS allowed many other forms of doubles and teams. Rules for single play does not apply. I mean why was nothing said right at the minute the 'coach' walked over to the table?

It's also seems clear that you did not call "Foul" and imediately address the player at the table. You claimed you never even saw the 8 ball shot.

After the coaching , which it seems at this point may not have been an infraction , the player at the table did in fact shoot the shot themselves correct?

I guess I'm just not sure what all the anger is focussed on at this point.

 

[ridewiththewind]

I believe the question remains , unless I missed it , has any rep from that league stated there was a rule infraction? As many other have stated coaching IS allowed many other forms of doubles and teams. Rules for single play does not apply. I mean why was nothing said right at the minute the 'coach' walked over to the table?

It's also seems clear that you did not call "Foul" and imediately address the player at the table. You claimed you never even saw the 8 ball shot.

After the coaching , which it seems at this point may not have been an infraction , the player at the table did in fact shoot the shot themselves correct?

I guess I'm just not sure what all the anger is focussed on at this point.

I absolutely did say....unless you missed it about the 100th time I have said it....."you can't do that'. In most cases, that qualifies as calling a foul, and all play should have stopped until the issue was resolved. That didn't happen.

 

[RRfireblade]

You hear things like that all the time come out of the crowd.

Sorry but thats not how you call a foul. You say foul. And then you walk to the table and stop play. You stated even your own captain wasnt even clear about what your concern was.

What I 'missed' and was curious about was whether any league rep present ever conceded that the coaching constituted a foul.

No need for hostility, Im just asking simple questions. But I understand that you dont like the answers.

 

[Bamacues]

I believe the question remains , unless I missed it , has any rep from that league stated there was a rule infraction? As many other have stated coaching IS allowed many other forms of doubles and teams. Rules for single play does not apply. I mean why was nothing said right at the minute the 'coach' walked over to the table?

From whay I read in the rules that were posted, in the ABSENCE of written local rules that specifically allow certain variations of coaching, etc for doubles play, etc, the league rules are in effect. No one has stated that the local league had any rule off-set or change in their bylaws/rules, etc.

If there were no off-setting local rules, it was a foul.

Joe

 

[OneIron]

Sorry, but I think you are wrong on this one. Assuming it was an obvious shot; you want to win a game because someone forgot to mark the obivious shot rather than have someone tell them to mark it.

To me, that just means you want to use the rules to win the game rather than actually win the game with your ability. IMO the league is probably better off without you.

Mark the pocket is a stupid rule that is used primarily as a way for losers to steal a game. I've been playing in a local league for five years that point at the pocket and this league plays no slop. Call every pocket. Not one single solitary argument over this rule in five years. I've been screwed countless times in the APA by someone forgetting to mark an obvious pocket. How did this nonsense start?

 

[ccshrimper]

The absence of your teammates sticking up for you on here is enough information for me. Say FOUL next time and none of this would've happened whether you were right or not. Saying "You can't do that, boohoo" isn't the same thing.

 

[RRfireblade]

From whay I read in the rules that were posted, in the ABSENCE of written local rules that specifically allow certain variations of coaching, etc for doubles play, etc, the league rules are in effect. No one has stated that the local league had any rule off-set or change in their bylaws/rules, etc.

If there were no off-setting local rules, it was a foul.

Joe

Curious then how this guy walks over to the table and has this whole presentation and no one in the room seems to be concerned.

 

[ridewiththewind]

The absence of your teammates sticking up for you on here is enough information for me. Say FOUL next time and none of this would've happened whether you were right or not. Saying "You can't do that, boohoo" isn't the same thing.

I was assured that, "you can't do that" was calling the foul....I did call and talk with the league president.

Let's see, I strongly suspect that two have no clue about AZB...I don't think one even has a computer. My captain has limited net access, and again, is not a member here, plus now that school is out he is spending time with his daughter upriver.

Again, the original post was clearly about clarification of the ruling of the situation, and not mentioning anyone specifically...why would I need to rally the troops to defend against that?

 

[ridewiththewind]

Curious then how this guy walks over to the table and has this whole presentation and no one in the room seems to be concerned.

I did say that no one else on my team was paying attention, oh and one was bartending...I know I said this. And why would their team say anything?

Look, if y'all can't take the time to read the whole thread, so that you have all the information, then I am going to quit responding....simply tired of repeating myself.

 

[ridewiththewind]

From whay I read in the rules that were posted, in the ABSENCE of written local rules that specifically allow certain variations of coaching, etc for doubles play, etc, the league rules are in effect. No one has stated that the local league had any rule off-set or change in their bylaws/rules, etc.

If there were no off-setting local rules, it was a foul.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your input. While the rules allow for your partner, captain or co-captain to come to the table for advice....it does not specifically state that the 'coach' may touch the current inning player's balls in any event. This is true of all the partner play leagues up here. In fact in any other partner play leagues, setting up the shot for your 'at table' player is a strict no-no...can't even take your stick to the table, and you can't use the 'at table' player's cue the line up the shot either.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

{quote]How did this nonsense start? [/quote]

You have to wonder, maybe someone that works in the Billiard Stupid Rules Dept. was sitting around being bored one day and decided to implement it.

VNEA uses it in Vegas, I don't know about the BCA.

There must have been a reason for it. Keep losers from cheating possibly?

I think a 30 mph speed limit is stupid myself but I like getting 120 dollar tickets less so I try and keep it under 40 when ever possible.

Some make it sound like theres nothing but a bunch of goody 2 shoes, rule books in hand, playing their game and waiting for their opponent to foul so they can pounce. Not that way at all. Luckily there are more honest people playing league pool than not. But there are enuff cheaters, sandbaggers and losers out there that can make league night not enjoyable. The rules are pretty much there for them so don't try and twist it otherwise.