Forfeit One's Integrity to Win a Game?

[justadub]

IMO the coach should stay in his seat and stfu when he is not shooting. Let then lean by practicing. What I see in league play is your a apa 2 w/o a coach and a apa 4 with a good coach. This is pool? No thank you. Johnnyt

Having a coach for newer players isn't a problem, unless it's abused. Like anything else, it's those who try to take advantage who make it a problem.

Those people are the minority. It's just that those who make problems stick out and are more memorable than the week-after-week time-after-time when coaches are done properly within the rules. You don't notice when people do the right thing, just when they break or take advantage of the rules.

Johnnyt, it may suit you to make someone's wife learn the hard way, instead of being given the chance to be helped out a little in a real-time situation. Fortunately, the APA realizes that beginners are more likely to stay with the game if they are treated like beginners and given a little bit of help, at the time when it would help them learn the most. And that's what the APA is supposed to be doing, helping people get started in the game. For more experienced players, you are correct, coaches aren't necessary.

 

[bullshot]

I've played in plenty of doubles and scotch doubles tournaments and I always thought that if you were allowed to consult with your partner you could also help them with ball in hand placement. I mean really, if you can tell them the best spot to put the ball, does it really matter whose hand moves the ball to that spot?

 

[dom_poppa]

So....I had a league match last night. We play under BCAPL rules; 8 Ball Jack-n-Jill.

We were playing a team known for winning....but I was playing some of my best pool in a year...couldn't do anything wrong it seemed...and we got out ahead of them in wins.

The gal on the visiting team gets BIH, and calls her partner to the table. She's on the 1 on the short rail opposite end of the table to the 8 ball sitting just off the tit of the corner pocket. I kinda thought it was a bit hinky for her to call her partner up, as she is a pretty sporty player, and the shot looked like a no-brainer to me. She sets down the CB in what I felt was a good place for it in order to get shape on the 8. Her partner then picks up the CB and lines up the shot and sets the CB down and even sights through the CB to the intended pocket. At this point I am saying, "you can't do that"...but my partner/Captain didn't hear me, so I went over to let him know what was up...by then, she had not only shot the 1 from where her partner had set the CB, but then pocketed the 8.

Her partner, who is also on the Grievance Committee, as well as the 'go to' rules guy comes over and says, 'Well, it's too late now, the game is over.....and I looked all over and couldn't find that rule that said I couldn't touch the CB when it was XXX's BIH." Wha, wha......WHAT?!!!

I explain that it is addressed in the BCA rules, and if there is need for clarification, I can always contact Mark Griffin. He's like, 'who the 'f' is Mark Griffin?" I explain that he's basically the one to talk to within the BCAPL organization. His response is, "But we're not BCAPL." To which I respond.....but you have adopted BCAPL rules for league play....you can't have your cake and eat it too. I was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about.....I left, livid.

Now, these are so not rookie players, and have been competing at the BCAPL Regionals in Lincoln City for years. I guess the fact that we were actually playing better pool than they were that night was more than he could bear.....but to so blatantly cheat to win?! Really?!!!

I have lost all respect for this player, who I thought was a straight shooter. I guess live and learn.

Needless to say, it is my last season with this league.

Thanks for listening.

Lisa

I don't know the rules as I don't play in league but I think everyone should learn the rules and be tested before joining the league.

Therefore, there wouldn't be any misunderstandings.

This is the reasons why I don't play in league....too much politics and too much people thinking they know it all.

 

[Pushout]

My million dollars would not be wasted on a circus act. Pool needs its dignity back. Clowns like Earl would not be allowed. Allowing him in my tournament is called selling out.

You don't have it and probably won't, pipe dream.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Marking a pocket for the 8 but not any other ball is silly to me. Hoping to win games because of your opponents lack of focus instead of your skill is chickencrap too. The people that take league this seriously are the main reason others quit league play, it's no longer fun.

If you were playing for $500 a set, I bet you'd be paying attention to the game.

We, as a team always give our opponents the option of calling the 8 or patching the pocket. I prefer call the 8 myself. If the other team opts for
patching the pocket, then they better do it. Pretty simple, yes?

We play against a few that are sticklers for the rules. If someone wants to play the game, I play it the same way. To insinuate that following the rules is somewhat unsportsmanlike and ruining the game for others is not correct.
I call fouls on myself, even if my opponent has his back turned and chatting with his team mates.

If you are going to play in a league, you follow the rules. anything less,
you may as well play bar rules.

Up to a couple of years ago, you scratched while shooting the 8, you lost. Now, you get another turn to shoot the 8. Now thats chicken s hit.

I can't understand how you can say that paying attention to your game and your opponents isn't fun.
You play a nice safety, your opponent fouls and gives you ball in hand. Job well done, thats fun.

 

[ccshrimper]

If you were playing for $500 a set, I bet you'd be paying attention to the game.

We, as a team always give our opponents the option of calling the 8 or patching the pocket. I prefer call the 8 myself. If the other team opts for
patching the pocket, then they better do it. Pretty simple, yes?

We play against a few that are sticklers for the rules. If someone wants to play the game, I play it the same way. To insinuate that following the rules is somewhat unsportsmanlike and ruining the game for others is not correct.
I call fouls on myself, even if my opponent has his back turned and chatting with his team mates.

If you are going to play in a league, you follow the rules. anything less,
you may as well play bar rules.

Up to a couple of years ago, you scratched while shooting the 8, you lost. Now, you get another turn to shoot the 8. Now thats chicken s hit.

I can't understand how you can say that paying attention to your game and your opponents isn't fun.
You play a nice safety, your opponent fouls and gives you ball in hand. Job well done, thats fun.

I have played for that and more, but I didn't do it for fun. It was to win money and if you think you are making money playing in a league you are sadly mistaken unless you drink waters every league night and do well at national tournaments. Pretty simple, yes?

Paying attention to the game isn't the same thing as sitting there waiting to pounce on any rule infraction you can possibly find. Nothing is fun about that and it ends up in arguments way too often. How's that fun unless you're one of those nits that gets off by arguing?

Why do you play league pool? Is it to socialize with friends and get out one night a week or is it to win a stupid little trophy by any way possible, maybe a little money or a trip to Vegas that will most likely cost you more than you can win? Do you forfeit a team if they were a player short and he shows up one minute late? IT'S AGAINST THE RULES!!! See how silly that sounds.

Play the stupid leagues for fun and IF the other team is a stickler for the rules then it is ok to play the same game. If they're being friendly and sportsmanlike, you should too.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

We play for a fun night out. Laughs, beer, wings, buds (ok, those Budz too).
We take out game seriously, we play to win. If we lose, no one loses sleep over it.

I know what you mean by the guys who will do anything to win. Sand bagging. I agree, that part makes it not fun. Had to deal with that a couple of years.

If a team can't make it, we don't make them forfeit. We allow them to reschedule for another time when they can make it. After all, We want to play pool, not win the game that way. There are times when one player doesn't show. We do our best to find a spare for that team at the bar so we can play it out.

The team I was referring to. Example. I was breaking. I adjusted the cue ball with my cue. Foul! Why? Because you touched the cue ball with your shaft. Oh, ok F off.

Same team, our player does a masse, makes the object ball. Foul! Why?
Because the cue ball left the table. Oh ok, the cue ball also leaves the table when you do a jump shot too. Where are you guys getting your rules from? See what I mean? Sticklers.

I'm not a stickler if that the way I came across. As I said, if I run into a team that is, I will play the game back.

I pay attention to what my opponent is doing. If he fouls, most of the time he is going to call on himself, I don't have to do it.
I know who I have to watch a little more closely and who I don't.

I like to win my games by out shooting my opponent. Hey, if he is going to
give me a ball in hand and let me get out, thats not my fault. I'll take it.

 

[poolmouse]

You don't have it and probably won't, pipe dream.

Hence my statement "If I had a million dollars".

 

[ridewiththewind]

I've played in plenty of doubles and scotch doubles tournaments and I always thought that if you were allowed to consult with your partner you could also help them with ball in hand placement. I mean really, if you can tell them the best spot to put the ball, does it really matter whose hand moves the ball to that spot?

Might as well take the shot for them too...you've done everything else for them.

 

[enzo]

So....I had a league match last night. We play under BCAPL rules; 8 Ball Jack-n-Jill.



We were playing a team known for winning....but I was playing some of my best pool in a year...couldn't do anything wrong it seemed...and we got out ahead of them in wins.

The gal on the visiting team gets BIH, and calls her partner to the table. She's on the 1 on the short rail opposite end of the table to the 8 ball sitting just off the tit of the corner pocket. I kinda thought it was a bit hinky for her to call her partner up, as she is a pretty sporty player, and the shot looked like a no-brainer to me. She sets down the CB in what I felt was a good place for it in order to get shape on the 8. Her partner then picks up the CB and lines up the shot and sets the CB down and even sights through the CB to the intended pocket. At this point I am saying, "you can't do that"...but my partner/Captain didn't hear me, so I went over to let him know what was up...by then, she had not only shot the 1 from where her partner had set the CB, but then pocketed the 8.

Her partner, who is also on the Grievance Committee, as well as the 'go to' rules guy comes over and says, 'Well, it's too late now, the game is over.....and I looked all over and couldn't find that rule that said I couldn't touch the CB when it was XXX's BIH." Wha, wha......WHAT?!!!

I explain that it is addressed in the BCA rules, and if there is need for clarification, I can always contact Mark Griffin. He's like, 'who the 'f' is Mark Griffin?" I explain that he's basically the one to talk to within the BCAPL organization. His response is, "But we're not BCAPL." To which I respond.....but you have adopted BCAPL rules for league play....you can't have your cake and eat it too. I was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about.....I left, livid.

Now, these are so not rookie players, and have been competing at the BCAPL Regionals in Lincoln City for years. I guess the fact that we were actually playing better pool than they were that night was more than he could bear.....but to so blatantly cheat to win?! Really?!!!

I have lost all respect for this player, who I thought was a straight shooter. I guess live and learn.

Needless to say, it is my last season with this league.

Thanks for listening.

Lisa

u know, ive been watching people gamble for 20 years. never once have i seen a situation like the one you described. in a situation like you described, people pretty much just concede the game... as it seems you even said yourself you were dead loser from there. i guess my point is, even gamblers.... who arent the highest form of human as we all know.... dont get in arguments like this.... where does that put you guys??

 

[ridewiththewind]

Since apparently some clarification is needed.....

...The team in question is 'stacked' with the best players in the area, all experienced players...not a single one needing a coach, trust me on that. There were only two balls left on the table, the 1 and the 8. The 1 ball was theirs and trust me, by no stretch a difficult shot...I couldn't figure out the need for coaching on it, but what the hey, it's their option. He immediately stated that he couldn't find anything in the rules...which kinda smacked of premeditation. I, personally felt it was a cheap move, given this team's ability.

I don't nickel and dime fouls to death...in fact, I very rarely ever call one, 'cept on myself. I prefer to play an honest game, win or lose.


As to my 'walking off'....I have been a Captain on several different leagues for over 10 years now. There have been very few years where I had a team that didn't have a player who's commitment was lacking, and we have had to forfeit games as a result. So, yeah, it was all kinds of wrong...but as angry as I got by the treatment I received, it truly was the best option. Probably didn't help that just before the match started, my Captain informed me that he was not going to be attending any further matches until Play-offs....leaving me without the partner I had been guaranteed as part of the conditions of my joining the team to begin with. So, in actuality, my Captain 'walked off' first....I was given no previous warning, and have to travel almost 25 miles for Home matches. Right about now, I am feeling like a big ol' chump.

Again, let me stress, BCAPL rules, not APA....I refuse to play APA.

Again, yes, I 'walked off'...that was my choice, right or wrong. But that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what took place on the table that night. Poor sportsmanship on my part? No less so than what transpired before, at the very least. No offer to replay the game, or anything else like that was made while I was there...just a, "too late, the game is over."

It is what it is....I am over it, and I am done. As well as done with the this thread...thanks to those who managed to keep it somewhat on topic and not try to turn this into a flamefest. It is appreciated.

Lisa

 

[bullshot]

Might as well take the shot for them too...you've done everything else for them.

No, I think i would draw the line at setting the ball up. I'll admit I've missed or screwed up plenty of ball in hand shots, but one thing I've never screwed up is setting the cue ball in the spot I intend to set it down at.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I haven't read this entire thread. My opinion is this issue has to be brought up before the game is over. You can't rewind time or reset the balls where they were. I mean what if I were playing somebody and he won and before the next game I told him I am calling foul on a shot from the last game where he double hit. No way in hell he is giving me the game and I wouldn't expect it.

 

[walrus_3d]

I haven't read this entire thread. My opinion is this issue has to be brought up before the game is over. You can't rewind time or reset the balls where they were. I mean what if I were playing somebody and he won and before the next game I told him I am calling foul on a shot from the last game where he double hit. No way in hell he is giving me the game and I wouldn't expect it.

Not ripping on you for not reading the whole thread, but apparently you and a lot of other people didn't read the whole original post. She called the foul as soon as it happened, and they ignored her. Five or six people here have talked about calling the foul "after the fact". She called the foul at the time and was ignored.

While I'm on the subject, there are a ton of posts on this thread about league players being rule nazis, and how you only have this kind of argument in league, and never in bar or money games. Once upon a time I was playing call pocket with a guy I didn't know, not a money game, just in the bar, and I carom the 8 off his 9 ball to win. He said I didn't call the carom. I said we're playing call pocket, not call shot. His buddy walks over, who by the way is a foot taller than me, and tells me I should walk away. Are you kidding me? It's a $.75 table, and we've got cheating and threats.
So, sure, those arguments only happen in league play because
1) the rules are only written down in league play, and
2) you have a reasonable expectation, in a league, that your rules argument isn't going to lead to a fistfight.

 

[LC3]

You say league was supposed to be a release from normal life and problems for you but yet you watch every game like a hawk hoping to call any foul on the other team.

We don't know that she exploits fouls like that. She saw something that she believed was a foul, tried to address it, and believes she was disrespected for it.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Not ripping on you for not reading the whole thread, but apparently you and a lot of other people didn't read the whole original post. She called the foul as soon as it happened, and they ignored her. Five or six people here have talked about calling the foul "after the fact". She called the foul at the time and was ignored.

While I'm on the subject, there are a ton of posts on this thread about league players being rule nazis, and how you only have this kind of argument in league, and never in bar or money games. Once upon a time I was playing call pocket with a guy I didn't know, not a money game, just in the bar, and I carom the 8 off his 9 ball to win. He said I didn't call the carom. I said we're playing call pocket, not call shot. His buddy walks over, who by the way is a foot taller than me, and tells me I should walk away. Are you kidding me? It's a $.75 table, and we've got cheating and threats.
So, sure, those arguments only happen in league play because
1) the rules are only written down in league play, and
2) you have a reasonable expectation, in a league, that your rules argument isn't going to lead to a fistfight.

I must be missing something because I went back and reread the original post and it still looks to me that she said nothing to the opposing team.

"At this point I am saying, "you can't do that"...but my partner/Captain didn't hear me, so I went over to let him know what was up...by then, she had not only shot the 1 from where her partner had set the CB, but then pocketed the 8.

Her partner, who is also on the Grievance Committee, as well as the 'go to' rules guy comes over and says, 'Well, it's too late now, the game is over.....and I looked all over and couldn't find that rule that said I couldn't touch the CB when it was XXX's BIH." Wha, wha......WHAT?!!!"


Either way I still don't like this sort of stuff in pool. Seriously the TC is questioning if they should have even taken a timeout to begin with. Who the heck is she to question if they want a timeout or not?!? Not only that but when things don't go her way she storms out. The other team moved the cue ball. She needs to get over that and move along. Its not like they were doing something that was unsportsman like.

 

[walrus_3d]

"At this point I am saying, "you can't do that"...but my partner/Captain didn't hear me, so I went over to let him know what was up...

To me this seems like she said "you can't do that" to the pair at the table, her partner/Captain turns and asks her what she said, she goes to tell him. doesn't really say how close she was to the other team, but i don't think i've ever said "you can't do that" so quietly the people at the table actually couldn't hear me. maybe i'm reading into it.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

To me this seems like she said "you can't do that" to the pair at the table, her partner/Captain turns and asks her what she said, she goes to tell him. doesn't really say how close she was to the other team, but i don't think i've ever said "you can't do that" so quietly the people at the table actually couldn't hear me. maybe i'm reading into it.

I'm probably wrong but who knows. It just seemed to me that by the time the other team was approached the game was already over. In any event I still think its silly to walk out over something like that. The other team had BIH......

 

[Eric.]

I guess the opinions in this thread didn't go the way the OP wanted, either, so she is walking out on this thread too


Eric

 

[Hierovision]

Why did you capitalize the "C" in "captain" multiple times?