Forfeit One's Integrity to Win a Game?

ridewiththewind said:
Yes, however, it does not specifically allow the coach to touch the CB or set up the at inning players shot.
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That is a weak argument and will not get you anywhere because all I have to say is that it definately was not a foul since it does not specifically say that the coach can not touch the CB or set up the inning players shot.

So its a mood point, You need to proove that it is a foul by using your league modified BCAPL rules or come to terms that it is not a foul in your league and you just personally dont agree with a coach setting up the CB for a player.

From my understanding, the only thing your local league rules say about coaching is that "coaching is allowed by the captain or co captain for a maximum of two times per game", and that is all it says about it. It does not put restrictions on what the coach can say or do while coaching, it does not put restrictions on a coach bringing a pool stick or anything else to the table. So, it is just a general rule that says your allowed to coach.
 
Hierovision said:
If it doesn't specifically DISALLOW it, then it's up to the league director (who should be on-call during matches) to make the call. You should call "Foul" (or some other statement paraphrasing "That's a foul.") and ask for a ruling from the director.

It's a sucky situation, but walking out was incorrect. If you called "Foul" and they continued play, I would ask the director to forfeit the entire match in your favor.

And if you don't get the ruling you want, quit the league! Complaining on an internet forum might not always be the best idea, as evidenced by this super-awesome thread.
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And the league director aka president told myself and my captain that he would have called the foul too, had it happened during a match with his team.

And I have quit the league.
 
Marie's husband said:
That is a weak argument and will not get you anywhere because all I have to say is that it definately was not a foul since it does not specifically say that the coach can not touch the CB or set up the inning players shot.
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Be careful...she might majored in Law, in high school. You would be in deep doo doo.


Eric
 
Marie's husband said:
That is a weak argument and will not get you anywhere because all I have to say is that it definately was not a foul since it does not specifically say that the coach can not touch the CB or set up the inning players shot.

So its a mood point, You need to proove that it is a foul by using your league modified BCAPL rules or come to terms that it is not a foul in your league and you just personally dont agree with a coach setting up the CB for a player.

From my understanding, the only thing your local league rules say about coaching is that "coaching is allowed by the captain or co captain for a maximum of two times per game", and that is all it says about it. It does not put restrictions on what the coach can say or do while coaching, it does not put restrictions on a coach bringing a pool stick or anything else to the table. So, it is just a general rule that says your allowed to coach.
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Thank you, you just as much as admitted that y'all were playing the loophole....you just made my point not moot (not mood) any longer.
 
Just so I'm sure I'm reading this right:

  • There is no specific language in these modified rules that would ALLOW the coach to place the cueball.
  • Conversely, there is no specific language in these modified rules that DISALLOW the coach to place the cueball.

Essentially, there's a flaw in the rules and, while it sucks, you were on the receiving end of it. If there is nothing specifically stating that the coach is NOT allowed to place the cueball, then the coach didn't do anything wrong. He didn't break a rule.

So no one really sacrificed their integrity to win a match. They just did what was, more or less, within the confines of the rules as written. I know you'll likely think that the players in question are taking this all too seriously as they are "sacrificing their integirty for a win" in a league match, but then again... you walked out, started a thread on a pool forum, and are quitting the league. So maybe you're BOTH just taking this a little bit too seriously.

ridewiththewind said:
Thank you, you just as much as admitted that y'all were playing the loophole....you just made my point not moot (not mood) any longer.
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No. She's not. She's simply playing by the rules. If there is nothing stating that the coach CAN'T do what he did, there was no rule broken. Period. Its a loophole, sure. And you just happened to be the victim of it. But since no rule was broken, your anger is misguided. Frankly, if all of these players are as competent and capable as you suggest, placing the cueball isn't really that advantageous. The player in question still has to shoot the ball.
 
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Eric. said:
Be careful...she might majored in Law, in high school. You would be in deep doo doo.


Eric
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So E...yet again you wait until I start a thread to what?, take a couple of pot shots at me? It's kinda creepy and very much like stalking....especially when you aren't actually contributing something. All one has to do is look at the threads I have started to see your appearance. We have already established that I have never done anything to you, or even a disparaging remark....all this because we had a difference of opinion in a JimboArmy chat once. Get over it and move on....and grow up.
 
mia said:
No. She's not. She's simply playing by the rules. If there is nothing stating that the coach CAN'T do what he did, there was no rule broken. Period.


Just so I'm sure I'm reading this right:

  • There is no specific language in these modified rules that would ALLOW the coach to place the cueball.
  • Conversely, there is no specific language in these modified rules that DISALLOW the coach to place the cueball.

Essentially, there's a flaw in the rules and, while it sucks, you were on the receiving end of it. If there is nothing specifically stating that the coach is NOT allowed to place the cueball, then the coach didn't do anything wrong. He didn't break a rule.

So no one really sacrificed their integrity to win a match. They just did what was, more or less, within the confines of the rules as written. I know you'll likely think that the players in question are taking this all too seriously as they are "sacrificing their integirty for a win" in a league match, but then again... you walked out, started a thread on a pool forum, and are quitting the league. So maybe you're BOTH just taking this a little bit too seriously.
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And that's not playing the loophole how?
 
Marie's husband said:
That is a weak argument and will not get you anywhere because all I have to say is that it definately was not a foul since it does not specifically say that the coach can not touch the CB or set up the inning players shot.

So its a mood point, You need to proove that it is a foul by using your league modified BCAPL rules or come to terms that it is not a foul in your league and you just personally dont agree with a coach setting up the CB for a player.

From my understanding, the only thing your local league rules say about coaching is that "coaching is allowed by the captain or co captain for a maximum of two times per game", and that is all it says about it. It does not put restrictions on what the coach can say or do while coaching, it does not put restrictions on a coach bringing a pool stick or anything else to the table. So, it is just a general rule that says your allowed to coach.
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ridewiththewind said:
Thank you, you just as much as admitted that y'all were playing the loophole....you just made my point not moot (not mood) any longer.
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{I know I'm gonna regret this, but...}

Lisa,

You do realize that if what Marie's husband said is true, and you agree with it, not only is it *not* a "loophole".... In fact, there would be no rule broken, at all!

If that is really the case, *you* would be in the wrong and *you* are the one that is really clinging to a technicality.

If it were me, I'd look at the brutal reality:

-The other team shoots well, had BIH with 1 ball left, and the 8 ball hanging by the corner pocket.

-There might NOT have been a rule infraction due to the match being a doubles match

-Your team dogged the game away by scratching to give them BIH. You were so close, but were about to lose a hard fought battle, against a better team that you really wanted to beat.

At the end of the day, I would have just lost gracefully.


Eric
 
ridewiththewind said:
So E...yet again you wait until I start a thread to what?, take a couple of pot shots at me? It's kinda creepy and very much like stalking....especially when you aren't actually contributing something. All one has to do is look at the threads I have started to see your appearance. We have already established that I have never done anything to you, or even a disparaging remark....all this because we had a difference of opinion in a JimboArmy chat once. Get over it and move on....and grow up.
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You're delusional.

You need to learn how to make accusations with fact, rather than just saying something that sounds good.


Eric >put the bong down
 
mia said:
Because you can't claim someone has broken a rule if...

(wait for it)


...there is no specific rule prohibiting their actions!
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Like I said....when quite a few league members all stated that they would have called the foul as well....it's playing the loophole....they knew what they were doing...they're too good a players not to. When you know an action is questionable at best, and will cause controversy, yet you choose to do it any way....that is what calls integrity into question.

I would never allow one of my players to pull such a stunt...not even if it meant winning the game. I don't want to win games using questionable tactics...it's just not worth it. I wanna win games because we played better than our opponent(s) in any given game...not because we had to use a loophole in the rules to do it. It's just not honorable.
 
Eric. said:
You're delusional.

You need to learn how to make accusations with fact, rather than just saying something that sounds good.


Eric >put the bong down
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Like I have stated, I have never done anything to you but disagree with you...you took it upon yourself to make sniping remarks towards me here...there are no facts to present.

You and a couple of others have decided that to attempt to discredit me and make me look like a fool is great sport....however, you have NEVER seen me follow your posts to take pot shots at you. Put me on IGNORE and go away and leave me alone.
 
ridewiththewind said:
Like I said....when quite a few league members all stated that they would have called the foul as well....it's playing the loophole....they knew what they were doing...they're too good a players not to. When you know an action is questionable at best, and will cause controversy, yet you choose to do it any way....that is what calls integrity into question.

I would never allow one of my players to pull such a stunt...not even if it meant winning the game. I don't want to win games using questionable tactics...it's just not worth it. I wanna win games because we played better than our opponent(s) in any given game...not because we had to use a loophole in the rules to do it. It's just not honorable.
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Lisa,
With all due respect, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. I'm not. That being said, your defense seems to be "I feel this way and others agreed with me". That doesn't exactly make you right. It makes you one of several who are of a certain opinion. If Marie's Husband were to ask a few of his friends about the scenario in question, he too would likely find people who said "I'm on YOUR side! Lisa's wrong! You didn't commit a foul!" Just having people who are of the same thought or opinion doesn't make you right. The plain truth is, no rule was broken. Winning a match by playing by the rules (quite literally in this case) would be viewed by MANY as honorable.

People agreeing with you doesn't equal "playing the loophole". While you and your teammates may feel it is, its not. There is no rule prohibiting it, thus... there is no rule broken. You can't break a rule if a rule doesn't exist. I understand you're disappointment and aggravation. With league play, those two feelings are commonplace so (as much as I hate to say it) get used to it.

That being If you're looking for honor in a bar league, you're barking up the wrong tree to begin with.

Frankly, I still don't see how someone else putting a cueball on the table gives any competent player an advantage when the coach could just tell them where to put it. Especially when there are only 2 balls on the table to begin with.
 
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I am getting responses via PM and am being told that that since the issue of the coach touching the CB and resetting the shot is not addressed either for or against in the modifications allowing coaching (as it must) then it defaults back to BCAPL rules for singles play which clearly states that ONLY the incoming player with BIH is allowed to touch and position the CB.

I have been told by league members to stand my ground and to not back off. I have also been urged to NOT quit the league, as the general feeling is that is what they are hoping for anyways. It is not about the win-loss column for me...never was...it's about PRINCIPLES. I have also been urged to take it to Grievance...which I will likely do, so this never happens again to another team on this league.
 
ridewiththewind said:
I am getting responses via PM and am being told that that since the issue of the coach touching the CB and resetting the shot is not addressed either for or against in the modifications allowing coaching (as it must) then it defaults back to BCAPL rules for singles play which clearly states that ONLY the incoming player with BIH is allowed to touch and position the CB.

I have been told by league members to stand my ground and to not back off. I have also been urged to NOT quit the league, as the general feeling is that is what they are hoping for anyways. It is not about the win-loss column for me...never was...it's about PRINCIPLES. I have also been urged to take it to Grievance...which I will likely do, so this never happens again to another team on this league.
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I hope you are sending a PM back to show you in the BCAPL rules where is clearly states "that ONLY the incoming player with BIH is allowed to touch and position the CB".

I did a search for it in the rules and could not find that cleary stated anywhere.

I dont disagree with you wanting to stand your ground, but there is a grievence committe that you should have submitted this argument to. But instead you decided to put other players integrity on the line by calling them cheats.

If you wanted an answer to the root of the question, your original post should have been like this.


Does anyone know in BCAPL rules if it is a foul if a coach positions the cue ball for a player? The league I am in uses BCAPL rules but is not sanctioned. It also modified the BCAPL rules and allows coaching, but does not specify any rules on what a coach can or can assist with.
 
Marie's husband said:
I hope you are sending a PM back to show you in the BCAPL rules where is clearly states "that ONLY the incoming player with BIH is allowed to touch and position the CB".

I did a search for it in the rules and could not find that cleary stated anywhere.

I dont disagree with you wanting to stand your ground, but there is a grievence committe that you should have submitted this argument to. But instead you decided to put other players integrity on the line by calling them cheats.

If you wanted an answer to the root of the question, your original post should have been like this.


Does anyone know in BCAPL rules if it is a foul if a coach positions the cue ball for a player? The league I am in uses BCAPL rules but is not sanctioned. It also modified the BCAPL rules and allows coaching, but does not specify any rules on what a coach can or can assist with.
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Hey, I didn't out anyone...y'all outed yourselves. And there is a groundswell building against y'all's logic....good luck.
 
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