Forget design "theft", lets call it inspiration

Imitation is the Highest Form of Flattery, and I see few NE Truly New Cue Designs where I play.

Counterfeiting a Cue, with a Counterfeit Signature, logo, and Provence. Than trying to sell it is a FELONY where I live, as a matter of Fact a CLASS VI Felony...
 
Poor Joe, always trying to cause trouble, (Just kidding)
I can see the dilema on the duplication of inlays on top of the points combined with the inlays in the cue, but I can never see a duplication of just Vee points and veneers, the choices of hardwoods and veneers are just to limited, unless you dye your own veneers and come up with your own colors, There is a line between duplication and looking simular. Of course I could be wrong, but I try to look at the whole picture.

Teach me DADDY!
 
Michael Webb said:
Poor Joe, always trying to cause trouble, (Just kidding)
I can see the dilema on the duplication of inlays on top of the points combined with the inlays in the cue, but I can never see a duplication of just Vee points and veneers, the choices of hardwoods and veneers are just to limited, unless you dye your own veneers and come up with your own colors, There is a line between duplication and looking simular. Of course I could be wrong, but I try to look at the whole picture.

Teach me DADDY!
Click to expand...

LOL Well Mike, you know why its here. You also see no comments from certain people because of who made a few of these "copies". But if you wanted to take duplication and design rights to the extreme, you could produce a case that even a veneered prong, or the Brunswick Hoppe ring has design protection.

Joe
 
classiccues said:
LOL Well Mike, you know why its here. You also see no comments from certain people because of who made a few of these "copies". But if you wanted to take duplication and design rights to the extreme, you could produce a case that even a veneered prong, or the Brunswick Hoppe ring has design protection.

Joe
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I know why it's there, just trying to show a lighter side of the situation, but the extreme would be going back to the very first cuemakers or foundation who did a certain pattern and get or pay for permission to use it. Wouldn't that add a twist to cuemaking in general.
 
classiccues said:
Design theft or inspiration?

http://www.classiccues.com/cues/inspiration.htm

Or if you feel differently.. say so.

If you can show others please feel free to post pictures in this thread.

Joe
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Since you seem hell bent on my attention and you are crying out for me to comment I will. You see Joe I have no agenda and I have no list of heros that you seem to have invented in your mind.
There is no doubt that the first few cues are COPIES of the Szamboti, I know who made them and I know you seem to think some of the guys are on that list you invented, but those cues are copies and WRONG. Again stealing is WRONG IMO, that in no way means all the cues they've ever made are copies and it doesn't mean they are bad people. It means the example you showed is a COPY (IMO) and is WRONG (IMO). The second selection R. Black did a COPY or the Gina A bad COPY but still a COPY and IMO it's wrong. BTW is Richard on your imaginary list, cause if he is I better shut up. As far as the SW's go your pictures on most suck and I won't comment on the bad pics, a few of the better pics can go either way in my book, but to many bad pics to go through.

I know you want to make this personal I know you have some vendetta against me, but it is what it is and I am always consistent. I'm sorry I don't buy into your Black and White ideals, I have a grey area. I understand that this stuff has gone on for a long time, but IMO it's been wrong for a long time and it prolly needs to change. With today’s technology there is no reason for this practice to go on. 30 years ago people bought the Gibson diamonds, they all did, to find many of the same cues wasn't uncommon because they were limited as to what they could do. Today with computers and CNC run mills & new materials the possibilities are endless, no 2 cues need to be the same. The only thing stopping that from happening would be the time, effort and costs associated with design work. I'm not saying that every cue should be different just pointing out that it is a possibility and the only thing stopping it is a lack of skill and the ease (with this same technology) to steal other people's work. It's much easier to copy something proven then to be original and come up with your own, and just because it's so doesn't make it right.
I've seen Gus's cue, it's perfect, not one of those copies did it better, why did I need to see it again? Don't you think there is a reason for the flood of SW knockoffs? It's do to an 8 year wait list and rising costs, it's no secret. And the sad part is that's how it's marketed, you can't count how many times Coker cues have been advertised on e-bay as "hits just like a SW" The fact is they are saying here is a SW cue without the wait and for 1/2 the cost. It's not right and it's real funny how the people who have stood up to defend the practice are the same ones who are trying to sell the copies or having the copies made because they can't afford the originals or don't want to wait to get them, yet when someone (Skins)who does this creative work and has been ripped off speaks up we are quick to ignore him. Or Sherm who posted that he asked permission just to use a style he felt was original and creative, not even a whole design pattern, nobody would have ever considered what he did wrong or a copy.

Who's word should we listen to? Me and Joe two clueless hacks or Skins and Sherm, 2 guys out there doing it? I'll stick with the experts and I have yet to hear one speak up and say I'm flattered when someone steals my idea or design. Yet Joe will continue to speak like he's an expert here LOL.

Jim <---Not an expert
 
You all will really have to educate me on this one,
Why would anyone want to sell a cue based on the theory that it hits like someone else's. This story comes to mind, A few years ago Atlas had some 7/16X10 pins that they offered me, when I saw it I said it looks like Joe Golds. So I called Joe and ask him if he minded that I use it,
and his quote was :
Mike, if it helps you to sell a cue because your pin looks like mine then it's okay with me, I didn't even think about it until he said it. What he said clicked right away and I never used or offered the pin because I never want to sell anything except the hit I beleive in.
 
I'll keep my opinions to myself, but I'd like to add a question to the discussion.
If someone copies a Balabuska and presents it as a copy is that considered wrong? Does the passing of a cuemaker make a difference, do his designs become "open source"?

Terry
 
All designs all open for anyone to use unless there is a patent on it.

I did a search for Szamboti and several others and found nothing. So as far as saying someone "stole" a design, not in the eyes of the law.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/toc.html

Names can be copyright protected but you can't just do a search for that, not that I could find anyway.
 
Jeff said:
All designs all open for anyone to use unless there is a patent on it.

I did a search for Szamboti and several others and found nothing. So as far as saying someone "stole" a design, not in the eyes of the law.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/toc.html

Names can be copyright protected but you can't just do a search for that, not that I could find anyway.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll give SOME opinion.
1st- Structural design- There are patents on shaft technologies and joints I would think. So permission would need to be obtained to use those patents. Most structural design appears to have been around for years and would be available to anybody to use.
2nd- Artistic design- As Mike Webb posted some things like points limit the amount of creativity. Other artistic design can be attributed to one designer but it is impractical to expect ALL of the artistic design elements to remain exclusive. If I as a customer decide I want a cue with elements of a Gina...that is my business. If I copy as exactly as possible a Gina it becomes a matter of giving credit,asking permission and not trying to pass it off as a Gina. You also have to consider that many artistic designs were formulated in the head of the customer, not the cuemaker, so who's design is being copied then? As a matter of courtesy the cuemakers can refuse to copy a design from another cuemaker. But what if John Doe designs a cue and has cuemaker 1 build it, it becomes a famous design, then several years later asks cuemaker 2 to build an exact copy, but cuemaker 1 says NO, you can't copy my design?

Terry
 
Jeff said:
All designs all open for anyone to use unless there is a patent on it.

I did a search for Szamboti and several others and found nothing. So as far as saying someone "stole" a design, not in the eyes of the law.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/toc.html

Names can be copyright protected but you can't just do a search for that, not that I could find anyway.
Click to expand...
We've had many discussions on this before, and a design copyright of visual art is what is being violated. These are the pertinent excerpts:

"Copyright Protection Is Automatic

Under the present copyright law, which became effective Jan. 1, 1978, a work is automatically protected by copyright when it is created. A work is created when it is “fixed” in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. Neither registration in the Copyright Office nor publication is required for copyright protection under the present law."


WORKS OF THE VISUAL ARTS
Copyright protects original “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works,” which include two-dimensional and three dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art. The following is a list of examples of such works:

Advertisements, commercial prints, labels
Artificial flowers and plants
Artwork applied to clothing or to other useful articles
Bumper stickers, decals, stickers
Cartographic works, such as maps, globes, relief models
-----------------------------------------------------------


Fred
 
Jeff said:
All designs all open for anyone to use unless there is a patent on it.

I did a search for Szamboti and several others and found nothing. So as far as saying someone "stole" a design, not in the eyes of the law.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/toc.html

Names can be copyright protected but you can't just do a search for that, not that I could find anyway.
Click to expand...


The problem with enforcing your Rights as a Patient Holder, Copyright Holder, or Trademark Holder is. You got to have lots of money for Attorneys FEES. Also if you go after someone, or a company who have Violated Your Rights as a Holder. Before you spend mega bucks you better be sure the Defendant has something to go after.

Disney, MLB, The NBA, The NFL, Oakley and several other companies I have seen at swap meets, and Large Commercial Flea Market with Law Enforcement confiscating Counterfeit Licensed Merchandise.

In my State Selling Counterfeit Merchandise is a Class 6 Felony, but most time one week the Counterfeit Merchandise is Confiscated, and the Next Week the Vendor has more.

Going down to a Mexican Border Town just West of Yuma this weekend to buy some things that cost 5-10 as much at the local Pharmacy.

I am sure there will be everything Counterfeit for sale from Rolex’s to Oakley like my last visit.

U.S. Customs for the most part don’t care unless you are buying a Boat Load of Counterfeits, and trying to come back with em to the U.S.. :cool:
 
Tbeaux said:
You also have to consider that many artistic designs were formulated in the head of the customer, not the cuemaker, so who's design is being copied then? As a matter of courtesy the cuemakers can refuse to copy a design from another cuemaker. But what if John Doe designs a cue and has cuemaker 1 build it, it becomes a famous design, then several years later asks cuemaker 2 to build an exact copy, but cuemaker 1 says NO, you can't copy my design?

Terry
Click to expand...

Good point
 
Michael Webb said:
You all will really have to educate me on this one,
Why would anyone want to sell a cue based on the theory that it hits like someone else's. This story comes to mind, A few years ago Atlas had some 7/16X10 pins that they offered me, when I saw it I said it looks like Joe Golds. So I called Joe and ask him if he minded that I use it,
and his quote was :
Mike, if it helps you to sell a cue because your pin looks like mine then it's okay with me, I didn't even think about it until he said it. What he said clicked right away and I never used or offered the pin because I never want to sell anything except the hit I beleive in.
Click to expand...

Mike-
All I can offer for a reply is this. If I were to go ahead and start building cues, I would try to make every cue I built hit exactly like my Mottey which I feel is the best playing cue I have ever hit with. Perhaps over time, through trial and error and a change in my game, i may wish to seek out a newer hit.

I think that to a degree it may be natural for some, not all, but some builders to try and emulate the feel of another cue when they first start. I don't know though. I don't build cues though so I could be wrong.
-Brian
 
pharaoh68 said:
Mike-
All I can offer for a reply is this. If I were to go ahead and start building cues, I would try to make every cue I built hit exactly like my Mottey which I feel is the best playing cue I have ever hit with. Perhaps over time, through trial and error and a change in my game, i may wish to seek out a newer hit.

I think that to a degree it may be natural for some, not all, but some builders to try and emulate the feel of another cue when they first start. I don't know though. I don't build cues though so I could be wrong.
-Brian
Click to expand...

It's okay if a cue maker wants to make a cue that plays like so an so, It's great that so an so's cue made a lasting impression on him BUT it is wrong to advertise that it hits like so an so's.
 
Michael Webb said:
It's okay if a cue maker wants to make a cue that plays like so an so, It's great that so an so's cue made a lasting impression on him BUT it is wrong to advertise that it hits like so an so's.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I agree. And there's a cuemaker or two out there that I could name right now who do this but I don't want to start any trouble so I'll just keep my mouth shut. :D
 
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