Foul or No Foul?
- Thread starter jsp
- Start date
jsp said:After your repeated posts trying to convince us that the Griffis shot was not a double-hit, I chose to regard all your posts on subjects such as this as nonsense.
Then you choose to ignore reality. Even Klopek changed his mind about the double-hit issue.
This scenario is an even closer call. The camera angle during the shot makes it impossible to tell what happened from the video. I assume the ref had a better view and made the right call.
But that shot can be made without fouling.
With the 10 going up table, the hit had to come from below. If the 8 was hit first the momentum of the cue ball would be moving away from the 10. For the 10 to move up table the force had to come from the right, then move to the left and from below the cut angle. The ghost cue ball position makes it a split hit, call goes to the referee.
mjantti said:
I'll go out on a limb here and say that if you have a gap between two balls and want to hit a third between them, it is impossible to hit the far ball first and move both of the "gap" balls.
Maybe, contrary to what I claim above, it is barely possible to move both of the gap balls, but if so, I suspect that only minor movement of the second gap ball struck is possible. In the actual shot (as I recall the live event -- I have not seen the video) both gap balls moved a lot.
As I recall the shot, the 8 was farther from the gap balls than the illustration above. Would someone who has access to the video check this?
And after thinking about it some more, here is my explanation of why moving both gap balls is more or less impossible.Bob Jewett said:
Suppose you hit the good ball after passing through the gap. Suppose you hit it on the right side. And suppose for the moment that the distances between the balls are small enough to ignore any draw.
If you hit the far object ball on the right the cue ball goes to the right and some amount forward. In any case, it makes less than a 90-degree turn. If it then hits the gap ball to the right, it could hit it on the left or right side. If it hits it on the left side (draw it out on paper) it will be directed generally forward along its original direction and not back towards the other gap ball. If the cue ball hits the gap ball on the right side, the cue ball will make another turn to the right. Again, this turn must be less than 90 degrees. With two turns to the right, each less than 90 degrees, the path of the cue ball cannot cross its incoming path. This means that it cannot hit the gap ball on the left.
However, if the far ball is well past the gap balls and you hit it nearly full with draw, it is possible to nearly draw the cue ball back through the gap and you will hit both gap balls on a good hit. I think this shot will look a lot different from Efren's shot.
Another possibility is to hit the first gap ball head-on or to the right with left english. If the cueball is still swerving, the spin will act like draw off the first gap ball. If you hit it to the right and there is follow on the cueball, it should act, I think, like a rail ticky and come back for the second ball, hitting it with a little more authority. Obviously, none of these things happened on the shot in question given the relatively large distance the 10-ball moved. You might need more than normal cue elevation to pull it off.Bob Jewett said:
Jim
Bob Jewett said:
Bob, one way you could move the second (left) gap ball, would be if there was draw when pocketing the 8 and the 8 probably would then be a little lower. The only way you could move the left ball enough to hit the rail would be to strike the right ball first and having left/inside english it would move off the 8 towards the left with speed, if it created this much left movement of the left gap ball it would have to be a bad hit. Since the pic shows the CB parking in the gap a split hit comes to mind.