FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know

straightline

AzB Silver Member
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Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.

Hi. First post here.
Briefly, I play a little and mostly just try to stay in stroke. I lurk here and on youtube for the matches and interesting tidbits. I find your videos very insightful and they've certainly added to my knowledge.

What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) I can see requiring the cueball be shot away from the frozen ball and back to it if it is the ball in play. Of course the rule for legal contact would still apply. Any thoughts?
 

dr_dave

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Hi. First post here.
Briefly, I play a little and mostly just try to stay in stroke. I lurk here and on youtube for the matches and interesting tidbits. I find your videos very insightful and they've certainly added to my knowledge.

What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) I can see requiring the cueball be shot away from the frozen ball and back to it if it is the ball in play. Of course the rule for legal contact would still apply. Any thoughts?
The current rules allow you to hit into a frozen CB since the shot does not involve a double hit or push. I personally like the rule the way it is, but I see your point that it seems odd to allow the tip, CB, and OB to be in contact at the same time, with the CB not initiating new contact with an OB during the shot.

Regards,
Dave
 

Bob Jewett

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... What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) ...
Contiguous seems fine to me. Or "all three simultaneously in contact".

At snooker, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but if you shoot away from it you get credit for having hit it if you want.

At carom, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but depending on the particular game you are playing:
you can choose to shoot away or have the frozen balls spotted
you must have all three balls spotted
(At carom there is a spot for the cue ball; it is never in hand.)

Pool is a different game and by the official rules you have been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball for at least 100 years.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
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The current rules allow you to hit into a frozen CB since the shot does not involve a double hit or push. I personally like the rule the way it is, but I see your point that it seems odd to allow the tip, CB, and OB to be in contact at the same time, with the CB not initiating new contact with an OB during the shot.

Regards,
Dave

I think that imparting motion to the frozen object ball constitutes some degree of push shot. Be that as it may, I do stick to the norms and will "cut" the frozen ball if it is in play or shoot away if it isn't.

Contiguous seems fine to me. Or "all three simultaneously in contact".

At snooker, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but if you shoot away from it you get credit for having hit it if you want.

At carom, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but depending on the particular game you are playing:
you can choose to shoot away or have the frozen balls spotted
you must have all three balls spotted
(At carom there is a spot for the cue ball; it is never in hand.)

Pool is a different game and by the official rules you have been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball for at least 100 years.

I was not aware of the snooker rule but I vaguely recall a Texas Express rule that covered the legality of pushots by the exit direction of the cueball; backward, legal / forward, not. Conversely a local 8 ball league deems a ball frozen to the cueball, un hittable, ie. nonexistant and the shooter is free to push through it at a playable ball; even the 8 ball. I don't play on this league but this rule did catch me off guard. lol

Thanks for the responses guys.
 

dr_dave

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Here's another set of important "unwritten rules:"

"Pool Etiquette" thread

Enjoy,
Dave

I just posted a new video as part of my "Everything You Need to Know" series that demonstrates everything you need to know about how to identify, detect, and avoid fouls in pool. Here it is:


Topics covered (with YouTube time-stamp links) include:
- legal shot (0:21)
- double hit (3:26)
- double hit detection (5:10)
- double hit avoidance (6:57)
---- small-gap angled hit (7:01)
---- elevated cue (7:14)
---- inside vs. outside spin (7:40)
---- short bridge and stroke (8:22)
---- small-gap grip tighten (8:30)
---- highly elevated cue (8:43)
---- hand against the rail (9:08)
---- reverse stroke with cue resting on table (9:28)
---- frozen CB shots (9:52)
-------- twice-as-full aiming system (10:58)
---- elevated follow shot (11:42)
- wrong ball first (12:37)
---- watching CB motion (12:53)
---- watching OB motion (13:31)
---- 3-frozen-OB proposition (14:10)
- miscue fouls (15:59)
---- herding unsportsmanlike intentional miscue foul (16:47)
---- cue lift unsportsmanlike intentional miscue foul (17:15)
---- unsportsmanlike intentional miscue safety foul (17:38)
---- illegal "scoop" jump shot (17:55)
- push shot (18:37)
---- push past frozen ball proposition (19:37)
- Pool Rules Quiz (20:01)

Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.

I wish all league players could somehow be required to watch this video. If they did, there would probably be fewer misunderstandings, disagreements, and arguments. It always shocks me how little most league players (even many good players) know about this important stuff.

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: FYI, all of the rules and fouls in the video are based on the standard WPA World Standardized Rules (the "official rules of pool"). APA, BCAPL, and VNEA league rules deviate slightly, but not by much. A good summary of all important differences can be found here:

 

dr_dave

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Thanks, Dave. Great stuff.
Thanks Freddie. Now you have more possible images of Dr. Dave in silly moments lookin' like a fool with his pants on the ground.

Don't get any thumbs broke, and stay away from the peanut butter,
Dave
 
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Justaneng

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I don't have any hope for these people, but I do have hope for the majority of league players who don't know this stuff but should. Some of them might actually want to know.

That's unfortunate, but it's his problem ... not yours.

Regards,
Dave

Regarding the "ball in hand" vs. "In the kitchen" paradigm - it may a messaging issue where the focus is on BIH being too easy. Focus should maybe be on why it's harder.

I've used this one before, with some success: "If you scratch you should be as (bleeped) over as possible - that way you'll learn not to do it again. You're not supposed to be able to (bleep) your way into a good situation" - It requires translation into the proper bar language, but it takes the focus away from the BIH beneficiary and more toward penalizing the person committing the foul.

Really the idea that you're "supposed" to say, step up to a table that still has 10+ balls sitting on it, and win your game of 8-ball that inning is completely foreign to most of the people showing up at your local pool hall on a Friday night. If the game is going 20+ innings anyway, I can get why BIH may be considered "cheating".

Most bar rules seem to serve the functional purpose of saving quarters through, and maximizing #innings/dollar, so I wonder if that's their real intent, and no one just remembers why.
 

Justaneng

Registered
Or maybe this works as a comparison:

"In the kitchen" would be the rough equivalent of modifying basketball to where foul shots were taken from half court.

Pee-wee leagues wouldn't really change - those kids were only going to hit 1/10 shots anyway, so it really doesn't matter where they were taking them from.

The NBA would become un-recognizable though, as the price for fouling gets drastically reduced.

So obviously, as you become better at pool, you should move toward the system that penalizes you more for fouling.
 

dr_dave

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as you become better at pool, you should move toward the system that penalizes you more for fouling.

... or everybody should always try to play under the "official rules of pool." There aren't many other sports where people just make up their own rules. "Bar rules" are considered by many to be official rules, but they seem to vary a lot from person to person, bar to bar, and state to state.
 
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