Thanks Bob. I already had most of these foul/rule situations linked (to the original videos) on the Example Bad or Interesting Calls resource page, but I just added a couple from the posted video that were not there already.
FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Thanks Bob. I already had most of these foul/rule situations linked (to the original videos) on the Example Bad or Interesting Calls resource page, but I just added a couple from the posted video that were not there already.
SeniorTom
Well-known member
I need some help with these particular situations that occurred today while playing, I can't seem to find the answer in the links that Dr Dave posted. We were playing Scotch doubles today:
Situation 1) my partner took his shot, and while moving his cue away from the table he hit another ball and moved it down the table with the shaft portion, not the tip. I have always been under the impression that this is not a foul (at least this has been the rule at this very venue so far) and the ball can either be placed back in its original position or left in the position it stopped in, opponents choice. In fact, this is how we handle it in League Play, at least where I play league at the pool hall. Our opponents took the moved ball and put it on the headspot, which I thought was not right, but I let it go just to temper things down a bit.
Situation 2) opponent hits his shot and the cue ball goes off the rail and bounces back and hits his tip directly and stops the ball before he lifted his stick. I called a foul and took ball in hand, irritating our opponents because they didn't call a foul on situation number 1 above.
What are the rulings on above situations, as this was not League Play, just open play in a fun tournament? Which is a foul and what is the proper way to deal with these two situations?
Situation 1) my partner took his shot, and while moving his cue away from the table he hit another ball and moved it down the table with the shaft portion, not the tip. I have always been under the impression that this is not a foul (at least this has been the rule at this very venue so far) and the ball can either be placed back in its original position or left in the position it stopped in, opponents choice. In fact, this is how we handle it in League Play, at least where I play league at the pool hall. Our opponents took the moved ball and put it on the headspot, which I thought was not right, but I let it go just to temper things down a bit.
Situation 2) opponent hits his shot and the cue ball goes off the rail and bounces back and hits his tip directly and stops the ball before he lifted his stick. I called a foul and took ball in hand, irritating our opponents because they didn't call a foul on situation number 1 above.
What are the rulings on above situations, as this was not League Play, just open play in a fun tournament? Which is a foul and what is the proper way to deal with these two situations?
Last edited:
FYI, detailed rukes can be found here:
1) If playing under “All Ball Fouls” (standard rules), touching any ball (except the CB with the tip during the shot) is a foul. If playing under “CB Fouls Only,” a moved ball should be returned to its original location with no foul (assuming it didn’t affect the shot, in which case it is a foul).
2) Hitting the CB more than once during a shot is a foul.
SeniorTom
Well-known member
Thanks Dr Dave, that is pretty much what I thought it would be. The only hitch for our play at this facility is that we have always returned a ball to its original location or left it where it was when striking it with the side of your cue stick. Our opponents moved the ball back to the head spot which I thought was wrong, but again I let it go to save arguments. To me, the second situation was pretty straightforward and easy to figure out. The only problem with that one was they thought we should have given them leeway and not called a foul on the double hit since they assumed they gave us a break on moving another ball with the side of the cue. We have always played it when you accidentally move another ball with your stick or fingers, you always leave your opponent the choice of moving it back or leaving it where it is. For some reason today they thought they deserved ball in hand for that infraction that they never called before.
Many amateur tournaments and leagues are run under "cue ball fouls only." That's a misnomer since there are lots of fouls that don't involve the cue ball that are still fouls under the relaxed rule. Usually the rule is not well specified. The WPA/WSR rules have CBFO as an incomplete afterthought.
The best discussion of the relaxed rules are in the CSI rulebook which is available through a link on the page Dr. Dave gave above. The back of that rulebook has "situations and interpretations" which help explain things. See Rule 1-33 in the CSI rulebook and the explanation section that rule mentions.
At the risk of appearing to be a rules lawyer, you could print off that section of the CSI rules and post it where you play.
snookered_again
Well-known member
a lot of confusion starts because there are some different rules for different games..
I just looked at one where he does ( what I would call) a push shot using the cue ball straight at the black ball ( to the side pocket) and the comment is that its a legal shot.. the comment is then made that on camera it wouldn't be a push shot.. the way its explained to me is that if you are hitting a ball and its closer than an inch or so ( a pool chalk ) the only way is to shoot down upon the ball, as soon as you are pushing the cue ball and the object ball with your cue its a foul. so the separation has to be enough that you can reduce your stroke to avoid this. a stroke of 1/8" for example is near impossible.
If i played that shot in snooker it would be instantly a 7 point foul.
no one would argue that the CB and the OB were not in contact at the same time time as the cue and it would be instantly called, even from a distance.
If I even set up for that shot someone would stop me and say no that's an instant foul.
Are they wrong?
after that there are two balls resting in contact. it says that shooting at a slight angle in snooker would be ok,
from what I understand, or heard ,, if the balls are actually touching the opponent is called over to verify. if they are touching then you have to shoot away, you cannot graze against the other ball as that is a push shot. so if they are s=touching from the start the touched ball cannot be moved, else its a foul.
also since they were already in contact at the start ( locked) you dont have to hit a ball.. this is a perfect chance to hook the opponent, since no red ball has to be hit. ( assuming you are on the red and the red is the locked ball) its already touching at the start.
if there is a gap than it is generally acceptable to shoot at an angle which barely interferes with the OB. but this technically speaking is also a push shot since you are then driving the CB and it is actually in contact with the OB..
so if you are alowed to do that, then where is the limit to where it does become a foul? how could a dividing line be made? It seems controversial and Ive noticed that in that situation most wont try to make the OB they will shoot away from it and not attempt to control it's direction , maybe just play a safety.
im neither an expert on sooker rules nor other "pool" games so my point was not to argue what is correct..
I may indeed be wrong.
a similar thing I see happen a lot is a miscue and when you look at the video of a miscue and see the cue hts the CB several times in rapid succession this is from a technical argument a foul, the cue contacted more than once. Usually when I see someone miscue like that it is just an error they have made and they will curse themselves for the goof up, but this is not generally called as a foul. unlessit is also a miss or you hit the wrong ball.
It would be nice to see a similar video with both snooker and pool experts present so these things could be decided or at least discussed properly. It could put some confusion put to rest. people are playing more than one game and it can become a bit like the wild west of personal opinions.
it has been said that there are many games of pool but snooker is only one game. that is not the case with most pool games obviously.
house rules or tournament rules may over ride, but thts a different situation.
most players I speak to play pool and snooker or only pool.. this forum is prmarily pool players and it seems the great vidos that Dave covers are mainly about pool, not snooker.. a lot of the logic on aim etc is so similar that they do apply.
the videos are great, Im still confused about these types of fouls. it seems that they are easily a point of contention. Im not making any argument, just ttrying to wrap my head around it logically.
I just plau for fun, so its never a strong issue , if it becomes an argiument its can easily be put to rest by stopping until some mutal agreement is reached.
However if money becomes invlved, its probably smart to work out a general consensus of understanding,
This stuff can break friendships.
I just looked at one where he does ( what I would call) a push shot using the cue ball straight at the black ball ( to the side pocket) and the comment is that its a legal shot.. the comment is then made that on camera it wouldn't be a push shot.. the way its explained to me is that if you are hitting a ball and its closer than an inch or so ( a pool chalk ) the only way is to shoot down upon the ball, as soon as you are pushing the cue ball and the object ball with your cue its a foul. so the separation has to be enough that you can reduce your stroke to avoid this. a stroke of 1/8" for example is near impossible.
If i played that shot in snooker it would be instantly a 7 point foul.
no one would argue that the CB and the OB were not in contact at the same time time as the cue and it would be instantly called, even from a distance.
If I even set up for that shot someone would stop me and say no that's an instant foul.
Are they wrong?
after that there are two balls resting in contact. it says that shooting at a slight angle in snooker would be ok,
from what I understand, or heard ,, if the balls are actually touching the opponent is called over to verify. if they are touching then you have to shoot away, you cannot graze against the other ball as that is a push shot. so if they are s=touching from the start the touched ball cannot be moved, else its a foul.
also since they were already in contact at the start ( locked) you dont have to hit a ball.. this is a perfect chance to hook the opponent, since no red ball has to be hit. ( assuming you are on the red and the red is the locked ball) its already touching at the start.
if there is a gap than it is generally acceptable to shoot at an angle which barely interferes with the OB. but this technically speaking is also a push shot since you are then driving the CB and it is actually in contact with the OB..
so if you are alowed to do that, then where is the limit to where it does become a foul? how could a dividing line be made? It seems controversial and Ive noticed that in that situation most wont try to make the OB they will shoot away from it and not attempt to control it's direction , maybe just play a safety.
im neither an expert on sooker rules nor other "pool" games so my point was not to argue what is correct..
I may indeed be wrong.
a similar thing I see happen a lot is a miscue and when you look at the video of a miscue and see the cue hts the CB several times in rapid succession this is from a technical argument a foul, the cue contacted more than once. Usually when I see someone miscue like that it is just an error they have made and they will curse themselves for the goof up, but this is not generally called as a foul. unlessit is also a miss or you hit the wrong ball.
It would be nice to see a similar video with both snooker and pool experts present so these things could be decided or at least discussed properly. It could put some confusion put to rest. people are playing more than one game and it can become a bit like the wild west of personal opinions.
it has been said that there are many games of pool but snooker is only one game. that is not the case with most pool games obviously.
house rules or tournament rules may over ride, but thts a different situation.
most players I speak to play pool and snooker or only pool.. this forum is prmarily pool players and it seems the great vidos that Dave covers are mainly about pool, not snooker.. a lot of the logic on aim etc is so similar that they do apply.
the videos are great, Im still confused about these types of fouls. it seems that they are easily a point of contention. Im not making any argument, just ttrying to wrap my head around it logically.
I just plau for fun, so its never a strong issue , if it becomes an argiument its can easily be put to rest by stopping until some mutal agreement is reached.
However if money becomes invlved, its probably smart to work out a general consensus of understanding,
This stuff can break friendships.
Last edited:
Many ways to both detect and avoid a double hit (or having the tip still be in contact with the CB during OB contact) are demonstrated here:
In pool, it is not a foul to hit into a CB that is frozen to an OB since the shot results in a clean, non-pushing, single hit (like any other legal shot). For more info, including clear super-slow-motion demonstrations, see:
snookered_again
Well-known member
thanks Dave these videos you make are really great !
some of the differences between push shots and clean shots are very difficult to decide upon and cause a lot of confusion. some have said they can also hear a double hit so hearing it may be part of it.
there are differences in the rules especially with reference to snooker. and it seems that some things are forgiven in pool that would be a foul in snooker.
some may take advantage of not being called out for a foul and that can make it seem valid. Its a bit like how if everyone drives 10 MPH over the speed limit it becomes normal driving. It may be looked upon as if you aren't really speeding if you are going with the flow. You are a straggler if you do the speed limit. so to some extent it takes enforcement to keep things fair, and enforcement isn't; really a bad thing otherwise you dont have valid rules.
the Videos do a good job of making a lot of very valid points.
some of the differences between push shots and clean shots are very difficult to decide upon and cause a lot of confusion. some have said they can also hear a double hit so hearing it may be part of it.
there are differences in the rules especially with reference to snooker. and it seems that some things are forgiven in pool that would be a foul in snooker.
some may take advantage of not being called out for a foul and that can make it seem valid. Its a bit like how if everyone drives 10 MPH over the speed limit it becomes normal driving. It may be looked upon as if you aren't really speeding if you are going with the flow. You are a straggler if you do the speed limit. so to some extent it takes enforcement to keep things fair, and enforcement isn't; really a bad thing otherwise you dont have valid rules.
the Videos do a good job of making a lot of very valid points.
Sound is not a reliable indicator of a double hit. Observing the motion of the CB is much more definitive.
snookered_again
Well-known member
when I began with Snooker I figured touching a ball with your shirt sleeve , as an example was fussy.. but after playing more no , it makes you more careful and since that is the rule , if you are lucky enough to play a more advanced player you are already playing by the same rules.
sometimes we have some inexperienced people that come to play at my hose, we explain the rules, So if a player is inexperienced and we want to give them a break what we do is tell them what they did would be a foul in a more serious game but since it is only a fun game at home we will only call on it if the ball actually moves.
the thing here that may be different from pool is that in snooker a large part of the game and most of the fun is in setting up your opponent for as difficult a shot as possible , this means that if the CB is surrounded by reds, or if you have to shoot over a ball, you just have to be careful as you are in risk of a foul. eliminating the touch rule removes the game strategy.
I find that most people would rather take the lost points of the foul and maintain the rules. who cares about the final score? If it is so uneven that the game is not challenge we can simply give the weaker opponent a number of points to start out with. most will say no, lets just play..
a common strategy is to tally the points as normal and if there is a variance that's ok then the player may be for "their best score" and basically seeing if they can make more points in the next game, essentially they are playing against themselves and hopefully seeing an improvement in their final score.
I try to approach the table with the intent that this is my shot and I'm doing my best. In other words it is the shot that is important , not the game. If I continuously loose to a better player I do not expect or want them to weaken their game , miss balls or take crazy chances, change the rules, because they know they will win..
Id rather look upon things from the perspective that I'm lucky to be playing a better player and this is an honor. Just play them do your best and if you cant; win you can watch what they did differently, I think this is one of the best ways to improve.
when It's quiet and I can play someone one on one that is way better, this is where the other player will often be able to add some advice and coach a little. Often while they are beating my pants off ! those are great opportunities.
I don't think most are put off by a players inexperience, what puts people off is if you fail to care, when it comes down to that, Best to just go home.
I find most are more concerned with their own advancement than the skill level of others. We all just want to get a bit better than we were last week and when we do see things come together, it's very satisfying, no matter the skill level. Progress is achievement. when people achieve things either a physical project, or skill level, or learning, it is innately satisfying.
there is no such thing as dirty pool if it is played by the rules. if the CB only moves an inch and you can put a person in a hook , this is simply a "good shot" you thought it out, you read the table and that was the most beneficial shot ..Even if the ball only moved an inch this can very well be the best shot available. that's not "dirty pool" it is simply smart game strategy.
If an inexperienced player leaves the CB near some other ball allowing this to happen you can point out the fact that there is a disadvantage to leaving the table where an opponent can hook you so easily. part of the game strategy is trying to not put the opponent in a position where they can so easily hook you. the way you learn this is by screwing up and the opponent taking advantage of how you left the table. Next it becomes once bitten, twice shy. It also takes experience to see that simple but obvious shot and not to simply sink the easiest ball or always aggressively play for your best shape on the next.
sometimes we have some inexperienced people that come to play at my hose, we explain the rules, So if a player is inexperienced and we want to give them a break what we do is tell them what they did would be a foul in a more serious game but since it is only a fun game at home we will only call on it if the ball actually moves.
the thing here that may be different from pool is that in snooker a large part of the game and most of the fun is in setting up your opponent for as difficult a shot as possible , this means that if the CB is surrounded by reds, or if you have to shoot over a ball, you just have to be careful as you are in risk of a foul. eliminating the touch rule removes the game strategy.
I find that most people would rather take the lost points of the foul and maintain the rules. who cares about the final score? If it is so uneven that the game is not challenge we can simply give the weaker opponent a number of points to start out with. most will say no, lets just play..
a common strategy is to tally the points as normal and if there is a variance that's ok then the player may be for "their best score" and basically seeing if they can make more points in the next game, essentially they are playing against themselves and hopefully seeing an improvement in their final score.
I try to approach the table with the intent that this is my shot and I'm doing my best. In other words it is the shot that is important , not the game. If I continuously loose to a better player I do not expect or want them to weaken their game , miss balls or take crazy chances, change the rules, because they know they will win..
Id rather look upon things from the perspective that I'm lucky to be playing a better player and this is an honor. Just play them do your best and if you cant; win you can watch what they did differently, I think this is one of the best ways to improve.
when It's quiet and I can play someone one on one that is way better, this is where the other player will often be able to add some advice and coach a little. Often while they are beating my pants off ! those are great opportunities.
I don't think most are put off by a players inexperience, what puts people off is if you fail to care, when it comes down to that, Best to just go home.
I find most are more concerned with their own advancement than the skill level of others. We all just want to get a bit better than we were last week and when we do see things come together, it's very satisfying, no matter the skill level. Progress is achievement. when people achieve things either a physical project, or skill level, or learning, it is innately satisfying.
there is no such thing as dirty pool if it is played by the rules. if the CB only moves an inch and you can put a person in a hook , this is simply a "good shot" you thought it out, you read the table and that was the most beneficial shot ..Even if the ball only moved an inch this can very well be the best shot available. that's not "dirty pool" it is simply smart game strategy.
If an inexperienced player leaves the CB near some other ball allowing this to happen you can point out the fact that there is a disadvantage to leaving the table where an opponent can hook you so easily. part of the game strategy is trying to not put the opponent in a position where they can so easily hook you. the way you learn this is by screwing up and the opponent taking advantage of how you left the table. Next it becomes once bitten, twice shy. It also takes experience to see that simple but obvious shot and not to simply sink the easiest ball or always aggressively play for your best shape on the next.
Last edited:
Here is another compilation by the same YT poster as the one I linked before.
That's a nice presentation of a good collection. I did a very similar video several years ago:
and I also have all the other shots, and many more, covered in the videos and link list here: