Found the wrist twist, now how do I get rid of it?

ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Silver Member
My stroke has been an issue for a long time now. I have to shoot from a comparatively high stance due to some back issues. Shooting from down low a pendulum works pretty good but from as high as I stand the pendulum gets some shoulder movement in it regardless and just doesn't feel comfortable. There isn't the feel of a stable elbow I get when using the pendulum down low. I have been fooling with the pendulum off and on for about four years now, I don't believe it is the stroke for me.

That brings me to the shoulder/wrist issue or what I believe is the issue. I am wide across the ribcage and toting some fat besides, as a result my arms hang out at an angle from my sides on a pad under each arm. If I swing my arm naturally front to back it also moves in an arc from side to side. I suspect as a compensation for that I have developed a slight wrist twist at the end of my stroke. I'm going to say this is not grip related because it is there regardless of how softly I hold the cue or how far I let the cue slide. This is also an inside to outside twist which seems a little odd unless it is a compensation I have developed for the arc in my arm swing.

Like most of these movements it isn't consistent. The first part of the solution seems to be to change my stance a little so that my arm is further out from my body and can move straight back and forth. The next question is concerning the wrist twist. Where do I want the wrist to begin with? Obviously I want the wrist to finish at the same angle to my body that it starts.

I work with my hands and there is a certain amount of muscle tension in my hands and arms. As a result with a normal soft grip the cue is centered under the inside edge of my wrist. When I twist my wrist unintentionally during a stroke the cue finishes up centered under my wrist and forearm.

Finally for a listing of my questions:

Should I change my stance to allow my arm to move freely straight back and forth?

Should I accept my natural hand curl and accept the cue centered under the inside edge of my wrist?

Should I start my stroke with my hand artificially twisted out to match where it is often finishing a stroke at now with the cue butt pretty much perfectly centered under my fore arm?

All thoughts appreciated.

Hu
 
Point your thumb straight down to the ground...STRAIGHT DOWN!


your getting an arc in your stroke b/c your wrist is cocked to the side, and then compensating by twisting it upon delivery.....so just keep your thumb pointed straight down....straight, straight,straight down:wink:

super easy and super effective



for a better game,
Grey GHost
 
I have some back problems as well, so here is a simple fix for that one. Get into a comfortable shooting position as you normally would. Now, before you begin your shooting checklist, take your rear foot and step it backward anywhere from 12 to 18 inches. This will bring your head and upper body down lower without putting any additional strain on your back. Trust me, it works very well.

Once you are lower on the shot, you will find it much easier to use a pure pendilum stroke. Then it becomes a matter of getting into the proper set position, and allowing your grip hand to find it's natural finish position.

I know Randy and Scott are both going to be in your area in the near future. Spend an hour at the table with either one of them, and they will help with that part.

BTW, the moving the back foot thing was a tip I got from Randy about 10 years ago, and every time I play pool, my back thanks him!

Steve
 
good post steve, that is especially helpful to taller players as they have farther to go to get down on the cue, it will also reduce strain on the neck as especially if you want to get really low on the cue, since it reduces the bend of the torso it also reduces how much you have to crane your neck up.

Grey Ghost
 
pooltchr, very good tip. I really thought I did not have back issues, and play some shots with a low stance, and some more up right. I found moving my back foot back puts me in a very balanced and comfortable stance. Thank you, I am looking forward to making this a natural part of my stance.
 
A couple of things from snooker players and others helped me.

1. Use the inverted V on the rear hand. That is, hold the cue stick in the area between your thumb and first finger touching the flesh. This makes it difficult to curl your fingers and keeps the little finger off the cue stick. The ring finger and the little finger tend to steer the cue and contribute to the wrist curl. This takes awhile to get used to but it will straighten out your stroke and I found that I can get all the speed, spin etc that is needed. It did require some re-learning though.

2. Find a place for your “finish” position. I am not very big (5’7” and 160 lbs or so). I am able to rest the cue stick on my chest as I stroke and finish my stroke with my rear hand touching my chest (near the nipple). This physical stop and the physical sensation of keeping the stick on line as it rubs on my chest has contributed to a straight stroke more than anything else, especially when I try to see the stick on the line that was intended during practice. I do not watch the stick when I play seriously.

3. To learn to consistently pocket balls I found that I had to shorten my stroke. I learned this from observing many pros. Sure there are those with a long stroke but if you watch closely there are many more with a relatively short stroke that does not exceed the pendulum. Seems that a longer back stroke has to pull your stick off line and then you have to bring it back on line and continue through this motion to a swipe, swope or whatever terminology is used. If you don't take the stick back too far you don't have to bring it back on line. Works for me and with some practice you get all the power etc that is needed.

I too move my rear foot back to get lower on the shot with no harm to my usual lower back problem.

If you are male, over 30, and do not have a lower back problem, you are not much of a man or so I have heard it said.

I suspect that you would hear something similar from those who make a living coaching. The advantage to a coach is that they know what to do and they can observe and see the minor adjustments that you can make and feel comfortable with.
 
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Good post JoeW, I will give these tips a try, and see if the help me like they did you.
 
Thanks to everyone!!

Thanks to everyone, the people that helped in this thread, in PM's, and in person. It took me awhile to get to a pool table this week and try a few things.

Some things worked, some didn't. This is an illusive problem and every time I think I have gotten to the root of it I am proven wrong. Part of the problem is that I think there should be a quick fix. Looks like it is going to be more of a major rebuild.

Hu
 
JoeW said:
A couple of things from snooker players and others helped me.

1. Use the inverted V on the rear hand. That is, hold the cue stick in the area between your thumb and first finger touching the flesh. This makes it difficult to curl your fingers and keeps the little finger off the cue stick. The ring finger and the little finger tend to steer the cue and contribute to the wrist curl. This takes awhile to get used to but it will straighten out your stroke and I found that I can get all the speed, spin etc that is needed. It did require some re-learning though.

2. Find a place for your “finish” position. I am not very big (5’7” and 160 lbs or so). I am able to rest the cue stick on my chest as I stroke and finish my stroke with my rear hand touching my chest (near the nipple). This physical stop and the physical sensation of keeping the stick on line as it rubs on my chest has contributed to a straight stroke more than anything else, especially when I try to see the stick on the line that was intended during practice. I do not watch the stick when I play seriously.

3. To learn to consistently pocket balls I found that I had to shorten my stroke. I learned this from observing many pros. Sure there are those with a long stroke but if you watch closely there are many more with a relatively short stroke that does not exceed the pendulum. Seems that a longer back stroke has to pull your stick off line and then you have to bring it back on line and continue through this motion to a swipe, swope or whatever terminology is used. If you don't take the stick back too far you don't have to bring it back on line. Works for me and with some practice you get all the power etc that is needed.

I too move my rear foot back to get lower on the shot with no harm to my usual lower back problem.

If you are male, over 30, and do not have a lower back problem, you are not much of a man or so I have heard it said.

I suspect that you would hear something similar from those who make a living coaching. The advantage to a coach is that they know what to do and they can observe and see the minor adjustments that you can make and feel comfortable with.
Click to expand...

Excellent post Joe. I was just discussing this very same thing last week with some of my students.


Bob <Definitely over 30, more then double that, and have back issues :wink:>

Edit: Here's a snooker site that is in keeping: http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/fcsnooker_new/coaching/basics/the_grip.htm
 
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ShootingArts said:
My stroke has been an issue for a long time now. I have to shoot from a comparatively high stance due to some back issues. Shooting from down low a pendulum works pretty good but from as high as I stand the pendulum gets some shoulder movement in it regardless and just doesn't feel comfortable. There isn't the feel of a stable elbow I get when using the pendulum down low. I have been fooling with the pendulum off and on for about four years now, I don't believe it is the stroke for me.

That brings me to the shoulder/wrist issue or what I believe is the issue. I am wide across the ribcage and toting some fat besides, as a result my arms hang out at an angle from my sides on a pad under each arm. If I swing my arm naturally front to back it also moves in an arc from side to side. I suspect as a compensation for that I have developed a slight wrist twist at the end of my stroke. I'm going to say this is not grip related because it is there regardless of how softly I hold the cue or how far I let the cue slide. This is also an inside to outside twist which seems a little odd unless it is a compensation I have developed for the arc in my arm swing.

Like most of these movements it isn't consistent. The first part of the solution seems to be to change my stance a little so that my arm is further out from my body and can move straight back and forth. The next question is concerning the wrist twist. Where do I want the wrist to begin with? Obviously I want the wrist to finish at the same angle to my body that it starts.

I work with my hands and there is a certain amount of muscle tension in my hands and arms. As a result with a normal soft grip the cue is centered under the inside edge of my wrist. When I twist my wrist unintentionally during a stroke the cue finishes up centered under my wrist and forearm.

Finally for a listing of my questions:

Should I change my stance to allow my arm to move freely straight back and forth?

Should I accept my natural hand curl and accept the cue centered under the inside edge of my wrist?

Should I start my stroke with my hand artificially twisted out to match where it is often finishing a stroke at now with the cue butt pretty much perfectly centered under my fore arm?

All thoughts appreciated.

Hu
Click to expand...


You beat world champions! what ever fundamental flaws you have can't be that bad
 
pooltchr said:
No matter how good someone is, the good ones know there are always things they can do better.

Steve
Click to expand...

For sure! Beating a World Champion and being one are two different things. Playing like a Champion all the time should be a goal,,,,SPF=randyg
 
That's what so many don't realize

poolplayer2093 said:
You beat world champions! what ever fundamental flaws you have can't be that bad
Click to expand...

I did beat world champions including Johnny Archer. I don't know what titles Johnny had won at the time, around 1990. However, we played one night for several hours before he quit, heads up. That doesn't mean a thing other than I beat Johnny that night on my home turf. We never played again. It certainly is nothing to indicate I am Johnny's equal. I beat other world champions and other hall of famers in other sports. They beat me a lot more often.

When folks want to brag about fairly meager accomplishments, well I can brag with the best of them. I don't forget what the truth is though and get a swollen head. Last night was the first time I even thought about it that with Johnny in the Hall of Fame I have now beaten hall of famers in three different sports. Those other hall of famers in other sports were world champions too. Every dog has his day if he has heart and persistence. Beating Johnny and some top players of the seventies and eighties doesn't have anything to do with an issue I am having with my game twenty years or thirty years later though.

Hu
 
randyg said:
For sure! Beating a World Champion and being one are two different things. Playing like a Champion all the time should be a goal,,,,SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

Agree. The fact that someone of Hu's calibre posts a thread of this nature speaks volumes of his character and willingness to progress to the "all the time" level you speak of.

Pompousness is not an adjective to be used to describe Hu!
 
Shortstop

randyg said:
For sure! Beating a World Champion and being one are two different things. Playing like a Champion all the time should be a goal,,,,SPF=randyg
Click to expand...


Randy,

By the common ratings used here my best was Open Player or Shortstop, meaning if the phase of the moon was right I could beat anyone in a gambling session on a given night, particularly in my own backyard.

When I started back playing 20 years after I quit playing seriously my wish and hope was to get back 85% of my game. That seems likely to be impossible on a big table, remotely possible on a bar table on a good day particularly if I am able to find room for one in my new shop I am building in the next couple of years. I rarely play on a bar table but I have hit 85% of my old game on one a few times in the last few years, the people playing me didn't like it!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

Hu


(yeah for any math freaks nipping at my heels I beat Johnny that night long after I had been playing seriously and had just came back to pool for a few months after getting a divorce and having free nights)
 
greyghost said:
good post steve, that is especially helpful to taller players as they have farther to go to get down on the cue, it will also reduce strain on the neck as especially if you want to get really low on the cue, since it reduces the bend of the torso it also reduces how much you have to crane your neck up.

Grey Ghost
Click to expand...

THANK YOU BOTH. I tried this in league tonight (I am 6' 4" and have recent back soreness) and this helped immensly. Also, reiteration of simple, fundamental things like "thumbs down" are great things to remind newer players (like me) of.

Great confidence tonight when shooting. Thanks all.
 
Maintaining grip tightness

When you are practicing your warm up strokes you can feel your grip is loose and free. Try to stroke your shot in a similar fasion with the same loose grip. Its not so easy to do especially on hard shots and long shots. Try it with a few simple shots to get use to it and gradually move on the tougher shots. Believe me its a challenge. Observe other players and watch when they shoot a simple shot and then a critical shot. Notice the differnce in their grip and even their stroke. Strive to maintain a similar grip in both the warm up and the execution. You should see immediate improvement. When you get proficient try your loose grip on a long draw. When you can do that consistently, your grip is good.

Happiness
Mark
 
au2ag said:
THANK YOU BOTH. I tried this in league tonight (I am 6' 4" and have recent back soreness) and this helped immensly. Also, reiteration of simple, fundamental things like "thumbs down" are great things to remind newer players (like me) of.

Great confidence tonight when shooting. Thanks all.
Click to expand...

your very welcome, and your spot on about the fundamental things for newbies. The earlier on you do it correctly the less of a headache its going to be later on when your trying to progress.

I learned about adjusting the stance in relation to the back and legs back in college. I played for so long, and would always be low on the ball with my feet closer together. What happened was

- my back was bent at a right angle to my legs
-this also put alot of stress on my bridge hand shoulder the lower I got
-I would also fully extend my bridge arm and lock it

Results
-back pain like crazy
-my neck felt like it was going to fall off
-my shoulder felt horrendous
-I hyperextended my bridge shoulder!!!

I was a runner in college, and you can't believe how much hell the trainers gave me over my hyperextended elbow. The idea was "How the hell do you get injured shooting pool?"

Well I found a way, lol. I learned to not lock out that elbow, and adjust my feet to take the tension off my shoulder, neck, and back.....now here's the kicker I'm only 5'7" so if your tall then all that is going to affect you even more. I've helped quite a few tall players with that aspect of the stance and its always a life saver.

Were all built different but if we can diagnose the problem and learn how to adjust our own unique bodies without affecting mechanics and fundamentals then thats the nuts....

Glad my injury could help others LMAO.....who would have figured hunh:grin:

Grey Ghost
 
Thanks to Everyone!

The good news is that I seem to have found the root of my stroke problem so it isn't really an issue any more, or not a mechanical issue.

The bad news, my "stroke problem" seems like it was a compensation for an aiming or alignment problem on many shots. Argh!!

I think I have the cure in hand already and it is just going to take some time and work to precisely locate and fix this newly found problem.

Thanks again to everyone. I much appreciate the thoughts and ideas.

Hu
 
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