free streaming

mlalum

mlalum

Banned
I"ve been on the forum critiquing the free streams over the last year. People think I do it to piss people off or stir the pot. Couldn't be farther from the truth. The only way to get pool out of the deep hole it's in is to face the cold hard facts. The many cheerleaders here aren't helping a thing. For any sport to grow there has to be a strong business proposition so that people with money will support the sport.

It can't be what you wish or hope it to be. Or what it might have been in the past. It has to be what will work now.

Having said that this weekend I saw the first free stream that i thought had the potential to be considered a sponsorship opportunity that you wouldn't be embarrassed to be a part of. Before the computer blew up Pat F's group at Tourning Stone was pretty darn good.

From a sponsor's view point here were the keys:

The commentators stayed on the match. They didn't try to be amateur comedians. They didn't let just anybody on the microphone. They knew the damn score. And they didn't get distracted by the chat for the most part.

Seems like little things right? Other free streams for the most part aren't successful with those issues. The cheerleaders want to say they want entertainment not a play by play. Well no other sport allows that. It's professional first goofing just now and then.

Upstate Al did a heroic job I thought. He tried real hard to maintain a professional level. I suspect one of the keys is that they have a dedicated director that demands a certain level. No other free stream does.

Do all the other free streamers do it for the right reason and try real hard. Of course. They do what they can. But it doesn't further the business proposition. In some ways it hurts.

In my view the turning stone performance was more professional than most of the pay per views I've seen.

I'm not saying they did everything right. Al feels obligated to the chat when he shouldn't be. But he's a friendly guy. The monitors should be more active in general than they are. On and On.

But another interesting thing about the Turning Stone broadcast were the numbers. You can't really take viewer numbers from the broadcast site as real. The nature of the Internet and a business trying to promote its services are going to be misleading. But if you compare the broadcast to other broadcasts with stong fields the numbers were significantly bigger. Both last year and this year. And it think that is due to the professionalism of the broadcast.

It wasn't a redneck hootenanny or a gambling lovefest or an amateurish production. IT WAS A POOL BROADCAST.

again all this will go unheard. This is not a critique of all the other streamers. This is just a vote for how the free streaming has to go to catch up with the overseas free streamers and/or have a decent chance at getting paying sponsors.
 
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hmm ...

i agree with some of what the original gangsta -- oops, poster! -- said.

if evaluating pool-streaming with traditional sponsors in mind (say from the network tv model) is the formula for success, then a serious, 'just the facts, maam,' commentator monologue would be appropriate.

this would certainly be the case if you believe the future audience for pool is the over-50, deadly-serious viewers set.

yet, it has often been said here that pool needs to attract younger participants ... the kids who are currently entranced by social networks, internet poker, twitter, texting, x-box, etc.

i watch my nieces and nephews do homework, listen to i-tunes, text their friends, chat online, and talk on their cells -- doing many of the above simultaneously and adroitly. to imagine them sitting in front of a computer screen, listening to a pool lecture is, well, a stretch.

the technology of streaming continues to get better and better. the allure of chat room banter -- with interaction from the mods and commentators -- adds to the texture and immediacy of the experience. it's dialogue v. monologue.

for example ... the 2008 summer olympics in beijing was tape-delayed by nbc for american consumption. what happened was this: broadcasts from other countries, such as south africa, were live-streamed into the united states. then (mostly young) people across the country were able to chat (text) with each other while simultaneously watching the events. this simple occurrence rocked network executives.

as the pool-streaming technology evolves -- instant replay, slo-mo, close-ups, challenges and booth reviews, etc. -- the opportunity for streamers to interact with viewers will increase. here's a made-up example: the mosconi cup / dennis hatch / shape on the eight ball ... well, i imagine a healthy percentage of american viewers were shouting, 'be careful!' boy, it would have been fun for us to be able to interact with the streamers (or perhaps a dedicated chat room mod) in real time.

now, i'm relatively new to pool, have almost no talent, but am taken with the game. i watch pool streams for entertainment, to learn, to root for a certain player ... for the usual reasons. but part of my enjoyment comes from the dumb ole chat rooms! some people think i'm an annoying, yappy brat ... hmm, never mind! but ... but ... if pool wants to attract a broader, younger audience, the old, stuffy, 'i'll tell you what's important, so be quiet' model seems a bit iffy.

i agree with the original poster that the turning stone stream was splendid! it was a graphic window into what pool streaming can be. (i've been a moderator on a few streams and one thing i did learn to do was keep score with pen and paper. it's understandable how new and distracted viewers are always asking for ball / game counts. turning stone was all over that! and more! yea commentators and mods!)

now, to pool demographics -- current and future. i hang out also at onepocket.org because that's my favorite game. many of the posters there are seasoned vets and they are the heart and soul of the community. their wisdom and stories are appreciated ... sure! but more than that, i love the banter, the insults, the woofing. it's an art form! when some of those boyos enter a chat room, whoa!

so ... cherish and celebrate the establishment, engage fringies such as i am, but do try to make some technologically-appropriate space for the next generation.

that's my story and i'm sticking to it!

sunny

p. s. the original poster was talking mostly about sponsors; i'm talking mostly about audiences. somewhere the twain could meet!

p. p. s. i'm aware of the multi-tasking requirements that beset commentators. adding chat room responsibilities would be onerous. but the 'color gal' could participate from time to time, along with the mods.

p. p. p. s. almost all discussions regarding pool are, somewhat understandably, male-oriented. maybe we could rethink some of that?
 
I threw down some "gold" on the thread and some green to both of the above. :thumbup:
 
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Believe it or not i think Sunnyone brings up intelligent points that are needed in this discussion: both sponsors and numbers are needed to make it work.

I believe part of the problem with the pool industry/streaming/whatever is that it caters to the hard core pool people. Obviously you have to cover that group but the difference between improving its image and market is NEW customers.

By my unoffical calculations the chat generally is about 15 percent of the audience. And it's most often the same people whereever you go. If the producers pay more than 15 percent of its attention to those viewers it's potentially to the detriment of the other 85 percent. Which is bad business.

I agree that a new audience is required as Sunnyone says. But the answer is not to have the announcers do that work. That's a big no-no. They have to stick to the match. However, i think the way the US Open was done with a separate chat well that's fine. But then whoever is handling that chat must take the responsibility regarding the entertainment value and good taste. KNow what the score is. Offer intelligent interaction rather than pure goofing. But if that does not attract more customers you must face the fact that it may not be the place to put your resources.
 
Mlalum, good topic. I hope more ppl chime in with honest critique and opinions. It's really the best way to improve the product.

That said, having been on the other side of the commentary booth, I just want to point out a few stark realities. Pool streams are usually a shoe string operation. There are no big support crews (grips, technicians, production assts., etc). There is generally no choreography. If anything, the commentators are usually at the mercy of their own talents and preparation. Even something as simple as keeping score can be a task because you don't always have access to a computer monitor or there is no one that is dedicated to keeping up with it. It can be very difficult to stay engaged with interesting commentary topics and keep track of logistics, scores, sponsors & website info.



Eric
 
In terms of commentators, there must be some kind of chemistry there. Its rough commentating with someone you can't stand being in the booth with, and alot of times these feelings comes across to the audience whether its intended or not. And Eric is right when he talks about kind of flying by the seat of your pants commentating. But that's something that would have to change. Commentators should do their research before the match. While working with Jay Helfert in Reno, I was impressed to see him get the home city, sponsors, cue makers and achievements of many of the players before the match started so that we could use this information throughout the match.
 
A part of why it doesnt really work is also because we dont look up to pool players the same as other spectator sports. Pros are generally degenerate they dump/catch/chop people up cause they don't make enough money. I think I have an okay arm, someone get Tom Brady on the phone so I can out throw him for the dough and he'll spot me 15 yards. You think its the fans and the sponsors? It's the players. No commentary on earth is going to stop Scott Frost from robbing your local good player when they are in town. It's almost funny cause although they have a talent I can't think of one person who has a decent job and life that wants to trade that in for a pro grade draw stroke.

Not to digress to much but how many times have we had pros put the bite on us? We pity these guys at the end of the day not look up to them. You want pool to go mainstream either show the dirtiest grimy side of it and embrace the real underground culture it truly is or get you about 400 Ralf Souquet's and have a tour.

It also doesn't help that joe shmoe can also run out like tap water. Just sayin' put them on some tight 12 footers and see what happens.
 
one of the things Melissa did to help us out in the booth for her women's so cal tour is, she had all players fill out a bio with questions like there sponsors, cue, who there mentor was, where they are from, where they play, what there goals are, ect.

This really helps getting to know players you don't already know and keeps things more professional.

Those who think commentating is easy to make sound professional should try doing it themselves and realize you have to talk , sound professional, get score and solve problems, usually on you own or with one other person.

Not taking anything away from accu-stats there work at turning stone was amazing. But they had a full production team, if Pat were doing it alone it would not have been as good as it was.


Mike, I agree with most of what you say, as fun as it is to interact with the chat room, it can get off topic very easy and not sound professional at all.
There are many free steams out there that are not trying to make money and are just there to have fun. On those streams interacting with the chat room is what its all about, having fun, maybe a little side action.


I JUST WANT TO THANK EACH AND EVERY STREAMER WHO HAS BROUGHT US A FREE STEAM, AT LEAST YOU ARE TRYING.

ONE LAST THANK YOU TO ALL THE VIEWRES, WITHOUT VIEWERS THERES IN NO STREAM.
 
mikeyfrost said:
A part of why it doesnt really work is also because we dont look up to pool players the same as other spectator sports. Pros are generally degenerate they dump/catch/chop people up cause they don't make enough money. I think I have an okay arm, someone get Tom Brady on the phone so I can out throw him for the dough and he'll spot me 15 yards. You think its the fans and the sponsors? It's the players. No commentary on earth is going to stop Scott Frost from robbing your local good player when they are in town. It's almost funny cause although they have a talent I can't think of one person who has a decent job and life that wants to trade that in for a pro grade draw stroke.

Not to digress to much but how many times have we had pros put the bite on us? We pity these guys at the end of the day not look up to them. You want pool to go mainstream either show the dirtiest grimy side of it and embrace the real underground culture it truly is or get you about 400 Ralf Souquet's and have a tour.

It also doesn't help that joe shmoe can also run out like tap water. Just sayin' put them on some tight 12 footers and see what happens.
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Not to make excuses for pool players behavior, but I think if there was a tour and a way to make a descent living some of the seedy things some of them do would not happen because they are not trying to scratch together a dollar to eat.

As for the pool players who do these things, its time to get a real job and stop acting like a fool.
 
its definitely tough making a real quality stream and covering all bases with 1 and even 2 people in the booth. ideally, you'd have 1 main commentator, a 2nd commentator that chimes in where necessary, but can keep up with the score and chat.
I've seen some streams where the commentator will talk to the chat over the microphone, rather than typing back. this is easier, but not the most professional way to do things, especially when recording matches. because when one watches the match later, they have no idea what was being said in the chat!

its also tough to stream tournaments for free, when trying to provide a truly quality stream. whats really a kick when youre down is when youre working on a closing an agreement and someone steps in and offers the service for free.
this will definitely hurt pool broadcasts, because the room owner will expect to get this service for free from not just the one who gave it to them for free (who most likely wont be there forever), but now from any broadcaster, making it much more difficult for it to progress and grow.

I think this is a great thread and I look forward to hearing more on how we can all make online pool broadcasts better!
 
Eric. said:
Mlalum, good topic. I hope more ppl chime in with honest critique and opinions. It's really the best way to improve the product.

That said, having been on the other side of the commentary booth, I just want to point out a few stark realities. Pool streams are usually a shoe string operation. There are no big support crews (grips, technicians, production assts., etc). There is generally no choreography. If anything, the commentators are usually at the mercy of their own talents and preparation. Even something as simple as keeping score can be a task because you don't always have access to a computer monitor or there is no one that is dedicated to keeping up with it. It can be very difficult to stay engaged with interesting commentary topics and keep track of logistics, scores, sponsors & website info.



Eric
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Thanks for the input Eric. I just want to point out one thing. I'm not critiquing the streamers who are out there for the love of the sport. God bless them for what they're trying to do. I'm talking strictly about moving the sport forward and what's required. That discussion is two different things in my mind. but people always want to take it as a slam on anybody who might be streaming. I have no interest in that at all. I"m interested in the reality and scope of pool's issues as far as growth is concerned.

p.s. I think a director on the stream is a key element in changing the overall quality of a broadcast.
 
streaming at this point......be it accustats, TAR, OTR, or just anyone trying it out....they are all trying to get their pool world in your face for free. Whatever they do IMO is awsome, be it professionally directed, or off the cuff.....the later which I enjoy more.

To think they need to stick to a certain script to make it work is looking in reverse IMO. When TAR hit the scene I was TOTALLY psyched at what they were doing. It felt like I was a new guest in a regular group of pool fans that I just that day discovered. It was JUST what I was looking for!....pool action with REAL PEOPLE talking on the mic. I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER TALKING HEAD trying to explain the shots in vain using the same stupid ass verbage......the mosconi cup was enough of Jim Wyche for this year thank you very much.....maybe he can go on vacation with Lon McCairne and Mitch Lawrence.

IMO bring on Jay Helfert, JCIN and ALL the TAR crew, Fred, Spiderweb, Lenny, Big Truck and all the guys keeping it real and fun!

leaqve the "directed" shows for trick shots, and SPEED POOL......oh sorry....artistic pool, yea.

G.
 
Gerry said:
streaming at this point......be it accustats, TAR, OTR, or just anyone trying it out....they are all trying to get their pool world in your face for free. Whatever they do IMO is awsome, be it professionally directed, or off the cuff.....the later which I enjoy more.

To think they need to stick to a certain script to make it work is looking in reverse IMO. When TAR hit the scene I was TOTALLY psyched at what they were doing. It felt like I was a new guest in a regular group of pool fans that I just that day discovered. It was JUST what I was looking for!....pool action with REAL PEOPLE talking on the mic. I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER TALKING HEAD trying to explain the shots in vain using the same stupid ass verbage......the mosconi cup was enough of Jim Wyche for this year thank you very much.....maybe he can go on vacation with Lon McCairne and Mitch Lawrence.

IMO bring on Jay Helfert, JCIN and ALL the TAR crew, Fred, Spiderweb, Lenny, Big Truck and all the guys keeping it real and fun!

leaqve the "directed" shows for trick shots, and SPEED POOL......oh sorry....artistic pool, yea.

G.
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I don't think i necessarily has to be one way or the other, there is a balance, there is plenty of dead time between racks or matches to chat with the chat room or make jokes.

I am guilty of chating with the chat room to much.
I have listen to some of the recorded matches I have done and I realize how bad it sounds when you cant read what we are talking about.

Like i said before if it is just for fun them do what you want, but if you are being paid by a tour to stream something a little more professionalism is in order.

The next time I get the chance to do a little commentary this thread will be in the back of my mind.

I can't believe I am saying this but thats MIKE for bringing this up.
 
I started reading and then stopped, just another whinner I said.
Don't do your part and I'll do mine..........whats the matter with you?
Grow up please
 
I liked the Turning Stone commentary.

Professional events should have professional commentary. I like when the commentators stick to play by play (during the game even if they do it badly) and ignore the chat room (until between racks). I like to learn from the match I can go to a bar if I want to be entertained.

Even if the commentators aren't being paid for their time its an audition (they should jump at the chance) of their talent. Look at old Chris Berman broadcasts he did everything under the sun until he got promoted to bigger and better things.

These "free streams" are auditions of a product you want to sell. Why would people "pay for view" when there's no telling if the stream is going to work or not.
 
I can't seem to watch live stream anymore...Comcast offered "free" Norton...we signed up for it, since we were paying for Norton before. Now I keep being knocked off the stream...ARRGH! So, everybody on the chats? I miss you guys! :sorry:
 
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