Freezing cue ball to the unbroken rack

EDRJR

EDRJR

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like to stick the cue ball to an unbroken rack when I do not have a break shot. I usually hit softly with follow, trying to get only 1 ball to the rail and pop a couple more out to limit counter safeties. Sometimes a ball on the close side leaks out and a shot or good safety is possible. It seems to happen more often if the cue ball does not line up square a ball in the rack. I'd appreciate advice on how best to get this safety executed properly. Thank you.
 
Kevin Lindstrom said:
You have the concept correct, just keep practicing the shot. Make sure you are using NO side english.
Click to expand...


Why no english? English has no effect on the cue ball off of other balls. Personally, I shoot that shot above center but english on the ball isn't going to make it fly out one side or the other and in a tight rack that object ball you're hitting isn't going anywhere.
MULLY
 
If I am positioned like the diagram below where the cue ball can hit any side of the stack as full as here I find that I can hit one of the balls that is one in from the corner at a nice medium speed with a half-tip of english pointing towards the center of that side. In this example since I hit the 13 straight on the 10 and 15 will not leak out enough for your opponent to see and balls on the other side of the stack will spread out pretty good with one of them easily getting to a rail. The english in this case is 9 o-clock which will then cause the cue ball to roll off the 13 and into the crease between the 13 and 3. If I was straight on for hitting the 3 first, then I would use 3 o-clock to have the cue ball roll into the same crease. The strength of the shot is in getting into that crease as it leaves the opponent with no open look at the 10 or 15.

Once you get the speed down for this shot you can always put your opponent in the position where they would only have a kick as an offensive option (if they are lucky) or be forced to take an intentional scratch to put you in the same position. If they do the latter, then you can put them into a 3-foul situation by just going back and forth with that option.

The main reason I think this is a good shot is due to the look my opponents usually get when they see the result; a mixture of :confused:, :( , :eek: and somtimes :mad: . I especially like :mad: .

CueTable Help

 
jjr- I really like to use english in the same way, and have had good luck with it. I did practice that quite a bit, with the end goal of getting the CB stuck in the crease between the 13/3. I still can't do it every time...
 
jjr183 said:
The english in this case is 9 o-clock which will then cause the cue ball to roll off the 13 and into the crease between the 13 and 3. If I was straight on for hitting the 3 first, then I would use 3 o-clock to have the cue ball roll into the same crease.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to argue, just extremely curious, because I've never heard that english will effect the cue ball off of object balls.
MULLY
 
mullyman said:
I'm not trying to argue, just extremely curious, because I've never heard that english will effect the cue ball off of object balls.
MULLY
Click to expand...

I'm thinking for the same reason that you can throw an object ball to the right or left with spin, you can throw the cueball the opposite way. I do it on occasion. I have to try jjr183's safety. I never really gave the spin much thought on that particular safety, and it comes up often.
 
mullyman said:
I'm not trying to argue, just extremely curious, because I've never heard that english will effect the cue ball off of object balls.
MULLY
Click to expand...

Since spin on the cue ball affects how it comes off the rail doesn't it make sense that it would affect how it comes off another ball? I know it won't happen to such an extreme since an OB is smoother, but in my experience it definitely does.

On Cliff's one pocket DVD's he explains how you can use running english to beat a scratch as it will cause the cue ball to come off the OB faster so that the follow or draw doesn't come into play until it has traveled further down the tangent line. I believe that this is for the same reason only at a larger angle as the cue ball will kick off the OB to give it the speed to get past the pocket.
 
Also, remember to check that the rack is tight. I've seen many perfect shots giving up fouls or free shots because there were gaps between balls. There aren't too many places you can make an efficient safety of this kind, many times I prefer kicking at the back of rack and taking a deliberate foul, because you can't sold out like that and whatever my opponent does, there's always a counter-move for it.
 
mjantti said:
Also, remember to check that the rack is tight. I've seen many perfect shots giving up fouls or free shots because there were gaps between balls. There aren't too many places you can make an efficient safety of this kind, many times I prefer kicking at the back of rack and taking a deliberate foul, because you can't sold out like that and whatever my opponent does, there's always a counter-move for it.
Click to expand...

The only thing I do not like about kicking at the back and freezing is that you are then on a foul which is a big advantage to your opponent. He could just trade nips with you until you are forced to shoot from the crappy position you tried to put him in. If your opponent is already on a foul, then this is definitely the better option.
 
When I play a safety such as the ones discussed here, I use a smooth soft rolling follow with a touch of english toward the bottom short rail (depending on which side I'm shooting from.

This slight touch of english will help the ball I'm contacting from rolling out in the direction of the bottom rail should I miss hit the exact center spot. It kind of holds the OB. I find it very effective to use and an added measure of assurance not to sell out a shot. The CB sticks better ....
 
I'm wondering if the english off of an object ball takes better when that object ball is backed up by the weight of the rest of a rack. This, as opposed to a smaller amount of spin you might get off of a lone object ball.
 
Well, the side english I explained gives me the security of helping "snug" the OB into the crotch of the two balls it lies in front of thus minimizing the chance it rolls off and out toward the bottom short rail.

(keep in mind this is very minimal and very slow, smooth rolling follow with the correct side english based on which side of the rack you are playing safe from. The CB may not even see a half rotation of sidespin, its merely an extra nudge.)

The follow helps snug it in as well since the OB is backed and it can't move forward, the CB follow keeps the CB against it. So what I'm trying to explain is a way to snug the balls up in two directions at once to maintain a frozen kiss after the shot.
 
Last edited:
jjr183 said:
The only thing I do not like about kicking at the back and freezing is that you are then on a foul which is a big advantage to your opponent. He could just trade nips with you until you are forced to shoot from the crappy position you tried to put him in. If your opponent is already on a foul, then this is definitely the better option.
Click to expand...

I don't mind being on a foul there. I rather take the foul than open up the rack for him trying to play a safety this thread is all about. There are only 6 balls in the rack I'm comfortable making an efficient safety freezing the cueball, and in most of them the cueball position is also important. The cueball needs to be in a right area to play the safety. I rather get into a safety battle with a foul or two than make the whole situation too easy for him. Frankly, the level of safety strategy is very poor here in Finland, even with the top players who make centuries easily. That's why I'm always comfortable taking a foul against them when I'm the favourite of outplaying them in a safety battle. So my opinion might be biased here...
 
bluepepper said:
I'm wondering if the english off of an object ball takes better when that object ball is backed up by the weight of the rest of a rack. This, as opposed to a smaller amount of spin you might get off of a lone object ball.
Click to expand...

This sounds like a job for dr_dave. Maybe he already did something on this, but I couldn't find it.
 
mjantti said:
I don't mind being on a foul there. I rather take the foul than open up the rack for him trying to play a safety this thread is all about. There are only 6 balls in the rack I'm comfortable making an efficient safety freezing the cueball, and in most of them the cueball position is also important. The cueball needs to be in a right area to play the safety. I rather get into a safety battle with a foul or two than make the whole situation too easy for him. Frankly, the level of safety strategy is very poor here in Finland, even with the top players who make centuries easily. That's why I'm always comfortable taking a foul against them when I'm the favourite of outplaying them in a safety battle. So my opinion might be biased here...
Click to expand...

As long as you know your opponents are weak in this regard then I can't fault that. The only problem I see is that players of the caliber you obviously are playing against have a tendency to work on their weaknesses so it might bite you in a tender place one day :eek: .
 
jjr183 said:
As long as you know your opponents are weak in this regard then I can't fault that. The only problem I see is that players of the caliber you obviously are playing against have a tendency to work on their weaknesses so it might bite you in a tender place one day :eek: .
Click to expand...

As long as the overall safety level is poor, I don't see them working on that, they are just looking for an opportunity to run as many balls as they can. I'm looking for keeping them tight against another ball for as long as I can. The safety level is so poor that I only see a couple of dozen players understanding the concept of intentional foul and much fewer using it efficiently. But until they learn, I'm safe (pun intended) :rolleyes:
 
EDRJR said:
I like to stick the cue ball to an unbroken rack when I do not have a break shot. I usually hit softly with follow, trying to get only 1 ball to the rail and pop a couple more out to limit counter safeties. Sometimes a ball on the close side leaks out and a shot or good safety is possible. It seems to happen more often if the cue ball does not line up square a ball in the rack. I'd appreciate advice on how best to get this safety executed properly. Thank you.
Click to expand...
In order to keep the cue ball from moving much to the side, you have to hit a ball full. Hitting right between two balls doesn't work. I hope this point is obvious, but I'm saying it just in case.

Beyond hitting a ball full, it seems to help if that object ball is being driven straight at another ball. That is, the cue ball should be in a line with the ball you are going to hit and the ball just behind the ball you are going to hit.

In general, the best ball to hit seems to be the one next to the corner ball on the 14-ball rack. In order for balls to be in line as mentioned above, that gives you a fairly narrow line for the cue ball to be on for the best safety.

As for side spin, yes there is friction between the cue ball and the object ball, and that will tend to move the cue ball to the side. Having your mother-in-law stand on one side of the table will also tend to make the ball go in that direction due to gravity. Both effects are small. I think that any tiny benefit you may get from side spin on a "stick it on the rack" shot is outweighed by the general problems of applying side. If side makes you more comfortable and doesn't cause other problems for you, go ahead and use it -- there is no law against it. Your mother-in-law may be puzzled by you asking her to move around the table, though, so don't bother with that.
 
jjr183 said:
Since spin on the cue ball affects how it comes off the rail doesn't it make sense that it would affect how it comes off another ball? I know it won't happen to such an extreme since an OB is smoother, but in my experience it definitely does.
Click to expand...

Well, in other situations it might make sense to say that but with pool I have to disagree. When the CB hits the rail it sinks into the rubber, it doesn't sink into anything when it hits another ball. I've seen slow motion video of the CB hitting an OB and then following the tangent line exactly regardless of the amount of spin on the CB. I would say any sideways movement from english would be the spin catching on the fibers of the table and because the ball is moving extremely slow. Not because it's spinning off of the other ball. I'm just guessing here but it could appear to move sideways when in fact the object ball was thrown a little to the opposite side. I don't know, just taking a stab in the dark. I would defer this to Bob Jewett to give us a correct answer. All the years I've been playing I've never known english to change the path of the cue ball off of an object ball.
MULLY
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top