From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:

[KRJ]

Sure, most players have no shot or aspiration to play at a super high level. BUT a champion, having made the journey from tyro to champion, will be able to see where any particular player is on their pool journey and guide the player to their next level with appropriate instruction because they have made the trek from base camp to summit. Most instructors have not.

To illustrate, another player I took a lesson from was Dallas West. Will I ever play anything like Dallas? No, of course not. I'm light years from his level. However, towards the end of a four hour lesson he says to me, “You have a real nice touch, Lou. And, I know you didn’t want to get into basics, but… would you like to know what took me from being a 70-ball runner to the next level? Because I can see that’s where you’re at and it’s something you could work on.” And I said (wait for it), “Yes.” And he told me and frankly it’s not something I’m going to give away but it has helped me *A Lot.* In this same vein, he showed me two shots and their variants that he said were essential for me to learn to excel at straight pool (I knew one of them from my 1pocket endeavors, but not the other.)

Time with a champion can do that for you.

Lou Figueroa

Funny, I trained with three world champions and never came away with anything like you described,,,,..learned a lot, but nothing that was a game changer. So safe to say it depends on what champion u are with. I can honestly say I learned more from Stan StuffIt than anyone, and I'm not a fan of CTE, I don't use it, don't like it, just was not for me, but he teaches more than that......so it really depends on the person and the teacher.....

 

[JB Cases]

This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .


:thumbup:

That's because some things are timeless, like water and oil.

 

[lfigueroa]

I see. So just garden variety champions are fair game for you to tear down but Willie is off limits?

Lou, it's all good, you have your "way" about you. "Lou is Lou" and that is unlikely to ever change.

In my opinion, you simply are set in your ways and if someone says something to you that you already agree with then you're good with both the information AND the person. But if they don't say what you want to hear then both the person and the information are no good. That's not a good way to go through life in my opinion but it's one way and in the end is only a minor annoyance.

"Lou is Lou" equates to "that's life" and people just work around it.

I just thought before you offer to give up a limb to sit at Mosconi's feet you might want to consider that he might say something about playing pool that you don't agree with and there you would sit, missing an arm seething about what you gave up to someone based on your hero-worship hope that they would only say that which you already think is the right and only way to play.

'If Willie Mosconi himself were to rise from the dead and tell me that CTE was a useful method I'd say go back to sleep Willie' - paraphrased from Lou Figueroa. (exact quote forthcoming)

"Champions" are transient, "legends" are timeless.

Liars are forever.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .


:thumbup:

And the rest will listen and hum along

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Funny, I trained with three world champions and never came away with anything like you described,,,,..learned a lot, but nothing that was a game changer. So safe to say it depends on what champion u are with. I can honestly say I learned more from Stan StuffIt than anyone, and I'm not a fan of CTE, I don't use it, don't like it, just was not for me, but he teaches more than that......so it really depends on the person and the teacher.....

You have to carefully select your "champions." Some guys... not going there. They do what they do and are unconscious about how they do it and/or cannot explain it. Others, and you can tell, have a self-awareness that draws students to them. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

"Champions" are transient, "legends" are timeless.

Liars are forever.

Lou Figueroa

You would know about the liars part more than anyone here as it was your profession. I would guess that a professional liar would be an expert in the timelessness of well crafted lies. Unfortunately for them though the world is getting more and more transparent as the witnesses to the same events are also able to have their voices heard.

Champions are also forever, once a title is won, barring cheating in the course of winning it, the title is forever theirs, the championship earned for eternity. It's the one thing that wannabe know-it-alls can't have no how much they pontificate about what champions do or don't do. They cannot earn that which they secretly covet yet openly deride.

In any event, what Willie did or didn't do, what he knew or didn't know, what he would or would not have said is lost to us with only the fragments pieced together by those who were willing to undertake the research to preserve them into a historical narrative.

What Willie did is of zero consequence to modern pool. Modern pool is played under different conditions on different equipment with different equipment. So using Willie to denigrate current instructors is just silly in my opinion. Especially if you once said you would tell Willie to go back and die if he didn't agree with you.

 

[ShootingArts]

maybe I am wrong . . .

and actually, you are wrong. had nothing to do with you...if any one else had made the same statement about Willie and Fats being friends I would have made the same response. only you took it as a personal affront.

as for Lou, he says he doesn't debate champions but in fact he clearly said he would tell Willie to stuff it if Willie dared to disagree with him....and Lou has certainly debated champions on here to the point that they even confronted him in person about it.

Maybe I am wrong and you are just an attention whore who believes any attention is better than being ignored. No question that you have a special thing for me however, indisputable if anyone does a little checking. When you post replies to me and Lou back to back there is no question you are seeking something from your betters. A spanking as I really suspect? Any attention at all?

It doesn't really matter, some people are nouns, some adjectives. You are an adjective, a very minor one at that. While quoting here is a bit from Mr Shunderson that fits you to a "T":

"you're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart."

That should cover it for your nightly spanking from one better.

Hu

 

[lfigueroa]

You would know about the liars part more than anyone here as it was your profession. I would guess that a professional liar would be an expert in the timelessness of well crafted lies. Unfortunately for them though the world is getting more and more transparent as the witnesses to the same events are also able to have their voices heard.

Champions are also forever, once a title is won, barring cheating in the course of winning it, the title is forever theirs, the championship earned for eternity. It's the one thing that wannabe know-it-alls can't have no how much they pontificate about what champions do or don't do. They cannot earn that which they secretly covet yet openly deride.

In any event, what Willie did or didn't do, what he knew or didn't know, what he would or would not have said is lost to us with only the fragments pieced together by those who were willing to undertake the research to preserve them into a historical narrative.

What Willie did is of zero consequence to modern pool. Modern pool is played under different conditions on different equipment with different equipment. So using Willie to denigrate current instructors is just silly in my opinion. Especially if you once said you would tell Willie to go back and die if he didn't agree with you.

John, I was going to try and provide a thoughtful reply, but then I happened to read Hu's response to you and I thought to myself: Hu is right. John doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. He's just looking for abuse -- it's the only thing he really craves, though he doesn't realize it.

So here, John, here's another dose for you: the only time we played for anything that mattered I beat you like a red headed step child. You whined and weaseled out of every side bet hiding behind your wife's skirt on the day of the match and on the flimsiest of excuses for everything else. You are a liar and a cheat, getting coached during our match by an open level player.

You lost, John, after five months of hurling insults. You lost. You not only lost $10K, you lost your self respect along the way. Oh, I know you don't believe that, but to the hundreds of viewers that night? You showed your ass.

Have a good night

Lou Figueroa

 

[KRJ]

You have to carefully select your "champions." Some guys... not going there. They do what they do and are unconscious about how they do it and/or cannot explain it. Others, and you can tell, have a self-awareness that draws students to them. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa

Exactly my point. It's hard to teach natural talent and instinct in any sport. Most folks seem to learn a lot from non champs as well...just like getting hitting lessons from a college baseball coach that never "made" it......

And just for the record, the three champs I took lessons from could spot Dallas West a few games in a long race

 

[lfigueroa]

Exactly my point. It's hard to teach natural talent and instinct in any sport. Most folks seem to learn a lot from non champs as well...just like getting hitting lessons from a college baseball coach that never "made" it......

And just for the record, the three champs I took lessons from could spot Dallas West a few games in a long race

Well, given that DW is a two time US Open champion and a 300 ball runner, that is impressive.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyA]

...............................

 

[JB Cases]

John, I was going to try and provide a thoughtful reply, but then I happened to read Hu's response to you and I thought to myself: Hu is right. John doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. He's just looking for abuse -- it's the only thing he really craves, though he doesn't realize it.

So here, John, here's another dose for you: the only time we played for anything that mattered I beat you like a red headed step child. You whined and weaseled out of every side bet hiding behind your wife's skirt on the day of the match and on the flimsiest of excuses for everything else. You are a liar and a cheat, getting coached during our match by an open level player.

You lost, John, after five months of hurling insults. You lost. You not only lost $10K, you lost your self respect along the way. Oh, I know you don't believe that, but to the hundreds of viewers that night? You showed your ass.

Have a good night

Lou Figueroa

Well, you're right, except for the beating like a stepchild part and the coaching part. You took the gift I gave you because I played way under speed and dogged my brains out. And even at that you barely won.

And I wasn't getting coached, if I had of they you would have lost every game since he arrived.

And you hurled just as many insults, before and after the match.

The fact is Lou, you did good, you showed up and you played on someone else's money but you showed up. Good for you. Now, with nothing left to discuss that's ON TOPIC all you have left is to go back to the match. I know that's always going to be your go to theme when you can't deal with the actual topic. It's totally cool, to the winner goes the spoils and so you get to crow about it whenever you run out of logic otherwise.

As for the betting, I can't help it if you were too chicken to take me up on doubling the bet in January, two months before the match.

Now, do you want to continue to take it off topic or simply admit you are two-faced when it comes to instruction. As long as the instructor says what you already agree with he is good and if he doesn't then he is clueless. That's what I get out of your statements, including ones you have made about Willie Mosconi.

Now, I can totally accept that you don't really believe any of it and your professional spinmeister gear kicks in to let you simply say whatever is convenient to "win" the point. I would expect nothing less from a man who spent his career spinning stories to be favorable to his employer.

 

[tony frank]

My grip is kinda like that. The first three fingers are touching the cue, but the one with the most weight on it is my ring finger.

I do exceptionally well with MY no finger grip. On setup - I hold the cue in the V between the thumb and the upper area of the first finger - no griping with finger or thumb - finger and thumb down. Cue pivots very well on practice strokes. Different shots are requires changes of grip. Very short finesse = no fingers - med distance and touch = very light laying of the cue on ring finger - long and power shots = cue lays on ring and pinky - hand closes on cue at impact. I don't know of anyone who does as I do. However I'm top dog reputation 4 sure.

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe I am wrong and you are just an attention whore who believes any attention is better than being ignored. No question that you have a special thing for me however, indisputable if anyone does a little checking. When you post replies to me and Lou back to back there is no question you are seeking something from your betters. A spanking as I really suspect? Any attention at all?

It doesn't really matter, some people are nouns, some adjectives. You are an adjective, a very minor one at that. While quoting here is a bit from Mr Shunderson that fits you to a "T":

"you're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart."

That should cover it for your nightly spanking from one better.

Hu

You have some kind of a fetish for spanking people? is that what you are really doing down there all alone on your farm? I only ask because you mention it twice now.

In the end Hu you are a super nobody. You spouted a statement as if it were fact and I simply disagreed with it, no malice at all. Just disagreed and cited my source.

You jumped on me with insults and denigrations as if I had somehow insulted your integrity. It's a discussion man, not a war. You made a statement and my recollection differed. Turns out my instinct was correct and yours was wrong. Of course I had to go and find the evidence for you.

Now I will question your integrity, are you willing at least to admit that you are wrong about Mosconi and Fats being friends in light of what Mr. Dyer has written?

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, you're right, except for the beating like a stepchild part and the coaching part. You took the gift I gave you because I played way under speed and dogged my brains out. And even at that you barely won.

And I wasn't getting coached, if I had of they you would have lost every game since he arrived.

And you hurled just as many insults, before and after the match.

The fact is Lou, you did good, you showed up and you played on someone else's money but you showed up. Good for you. Now, with nothing left to discuss that's ON TOPIC all you have left is to go back to the match. I know that's always going to be your go to theme when you can't deal with the actual topic. It's totally cool, to the winner goes the spoils and so you get to crow about it whenever you run out of logic otherwise.

As for the betting, I can't help it if you were too chicken to take me up on doubling the bet in January, two months before the match.

Now, do you want to continue to take it off topic or simply admit you are two-faced when it comes to instruction. As long as the instructor says what you already agree with he is good and if he doesn't then he is clueless. That's what I get out of your statements, including ones you have made about Willie Mosconi.

Now, I can totally accept that you don't really believe any of it and your professional spinmeister gear kicks in to let you simply say whatever is convenient to "win" the point. I would expect nothing less from a man who spent his career spinning stories to be favorable to his employer.

You were getting coached -- there are no two ways about it. I heard it for myself and there were independent witnesses that saw it and have posted about it. You have no honor.

And to say I hurled as many insults before the match shows just how deranged you truly are. Everyone here noted how I said little in the run up to our match while you ranted ad nauseam. To lie so blatantly shows you have no shame.

Back on topic: as I said to RJ, champion or not, you have to carefully pick whom to take instruction from. There are some guys with whom I would never sign up for a lesson with in the first place, for any number of reasons. It's that simple.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

You were getting coached -- there are no two ways about it. I heard it for myself and there were independent witnesses that saw it and have posted about it. You have no honor.

And to say I hurled as many insults before the match shows just how deranged you truly are. Everyone here noted how I said little in the run up to our match while you ranted ad nauseam. To lie so blatantly shows you have no shame.

Back on topic: as I said to RJ, champion or not, you have to carefully pick whom to take instruction from. There are some guys with whom I would never sign up for a lesson with in the first place, for any number of reasons. It's that simple.

Lou Figueroa

you didn't hear anything. and neither did anyone else.

the people who posted were across the arena and heard nothing either.

because there was nothing to hear.

again if I was being coached you would have lost the match. easily.

and you insulted me plenty. at least I bet all my own. you wouldn't play on your own money for any amount. even when I offered you 9 to 8 for 100 a game you ducked me. hardly the two bit coward you called me on here that got all this going.

anyway....I will write my side of it when I am ready.

now....go ahead and keep talking about it.

See you in St. Louis soon.

 

[tony frank]

Any chance of more about MOSCONI ?

 

[JoeyA]

Any chance of more about MOSCONI ?

Willie was a grinder and HATED to lose an exhibition. One of our local "boys" (New Orleans) was beating on him playing straight pool exhibition and he took a break and called the owner of the pool room and the player into a side room and read them the riot act.

JoeyA

 

[Mr. Bond]

Willie died Thursday Sept. 18th 1993
21 years and 8 days ago

His legend, however, lives on

 

[lfigueroa]

Willie was such an intense competitor that his hair turned prematurely grey at 21. Some tournaments he'd lose 8 pounds and often, while his opponent was shooting, he'd chew his tongue bloody while he sat in the chair. It took a stoke, after winning his 15th world championship, to make him quit competing.

Lou Figueroa