From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:

lfigueroa said:
..."“You know, some of these guys don’t know what they’re talking about. If you want to play like a champion, take a lesson from a champion.”

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, you hit this nail on the head with that quote. Nobody should be going to Willie to figure out if their stroke needed tweaking. Just like nobody goes to Efren to figure out if they are right/left eye dominant or how their grip is.

You ask a champion how to play the game, not how to fix your fundamentals. The "instructors" seem to think that Willie wasn't a teacher because he couldn't make your pendulum work and didn't understand how long a tip is in contact with the cue ball. So what if he's ignorant on that. You shouldn't be asking him to teach you that anyway. Hell, there are a bunch of know-it-alls that can show how to hold a stick and stand.

Ask any guy who can run 100+ balls in straight if they would want a lesson from Willie or a (BCA) (PBIA) (Master) (Super) (Awesome) (Bestest) (Number 1) instructor, and I think you will have a 100% consensus. Ask a guy who eat McDonalds and you might get a different answer...

-td
 
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damyum, now he sees the past present and future!

JB Cases said:
Runyon's stories were based the fact that he lived them right alongside the people he fictionalized.

Yours could be true or they could be pure fiction, no one knows but you and perhaps a few others. In any event it's of no consequence to me whether they are true or not because none of them have any bearing on my life and as far as I can tell are of no use to anyone else's life as anything other than mild entertainment. You should write a book if you think your life was so exciting that other people love to read about it.

None of which has anything to do with the topic. Which is whether Mosconi and Fats were friends. According to Dyer, they were not.

If I said I were fond of you it wouldn't make us friends now would it? You can be fond of someone for various reasons, in Willie's case, ever the professional, it was the money making aspect of the dynamic. In that sense what you "remembered" from Willie's Game (not Cosell or otherwise) was true, Willie saw Fats as a way to make easy money.

But according to Dyer's research, they were not friends or even friendly.
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Actually I'm quite sure that I didn't remember it from Willie's Game having never read it, someone else supplied that bit of info. A shame that you didn't use your ability to read the past, present, and future before playing Lou, you might be $10,000 richer and smarter!

Nobody but you particularly cares what I did or didn't do. In addition the stories are intended to amuse, that is why they are written. If purported to be true they are, some others are deliberately written over the top or tongue in cheek. You being totally lacking in humor, I can understand you not being able to understand the difference.

I noticed that you started this sequence of posts with Lou and I at the same time last night. You get a kick out of getting spanked by your betters don't you, you kinky little fella?

Hu
 
Was Willie "trained" by a champion? It sounds more like one of his statements that matched his arrogance . I thought one had to gamble. Which is it???? My point exactly
 
td873 said:
Lou, you hit this nail on the head with that quote. Nobody should be going to Willie to figure out if their stroke needed tweaking. Just like nobody goes to Efren to figure out if they are right/left eye dominant or how their grip is.

You ask a champion how to play the game, not how to fix your fundamentals. The "instructors" seem to think that Willie wasn't a teacher because he couldn't make your pendulum work and didn't understand how long a tip is in contact with the cue ball. So what if he's ignorant on that. You shouldn't be asking him to teach you that anyway. Hell, there are a bunch of know-it-alls that can show how to hold a stick and stand.

Ask any guy who can run 100+ balls in straight if they would want a lesson from Willie or a (BCA) (PBIA) (Master) (Super) (Awesome) (Bestest) (Number 1) instructor, and I think you will have a 100% consensus. Ask a guy who eat McDonalds and you might get a different answer...

-td

I would guess that the top straight pool players today would probably like to sit down with Wil
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Hey wait a second -- I eat McDonalds.

Now I'm just confused.:D
 
you have to go to the right person

td873 said:
Lou, you hit this nail on the head with that quote. Nobody should be going to Willie to figure out if their stroke needed tweaking. Just like nobody goes to Efren to figure out if they are right/left eye dominant or how their grip is.

You ask a champion how to play the game, not how to fix your fundamentals. The "instructors" seem to think that Willie wasn't a teacher because he couldn't make your pendulum work and didn't understand how long a tip is in contact with the cue ball. So what if he's ignorant on that. You shouldn't be asking him to teach you that anyway. Hell, there are a bunch of know-it-alls that can show how to hold a stick and stand.

Ask any guy who can run 100+ balls in straight if they would want a lesson from Willie or a (BCA) (PBIA) (Master) (Super) (Awesome) (Bestest) (Number 1) instructor, and I think you will have a 100% consensus. Ask a guy who eat McDonalds and you might get a different answer...

-td

I would guess that the top straight pool players today would probably like to sit down with Wil
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td,

Ray Martin is the somewhat rare person who can do and teach. Having met you a few times I very much suspect you can do both too. Many of the champions are pretty lousy teachers because they tend to assume you know the things they do and they leave huge gaps in their instruction. I have also talked to a couple of champions who wrote or co-wrote books who admitted they didn't have a clue how they did things, they just did it. They wrote down what others said. Also, some people realize that you can't really sell books that boil down to put in many years of dedicated effort so they write what they know doesn't work but sounds good.

I read one book carefully from cover to cover that was written by a champion, he did say just do it with no other real information given. I watched him on video. While what he was doing wasn't dangerous for him, combined with a very common mistake of beginners or low level shooters it was an excellent way to shoot yourself!

One or two sentences from a champion turned my race car handling and my driving around. I doubt Joe had a book in him but his advice was first rate! As I think you said in other words, champions are great for help with the mental game and for bits and pieces of information that you often won't get from an instructor or book, instructors are usually better to put a total package as a player together.

I think we all would agree that Willie had a huge knowledge of the physics of pool, Applied Physics that is! He put the top ten or fifteen percent on my game just from watching about fifteen or twenty minutes of his play on video.

Hu
 
Mr. Bond said:
Speaking of "hate" (as in Fats)
And speaking of feeding his family..

In an article from Life Magazine (Oct. 8, 1951) Willie makes the following statements:

" In my opinion, no player can rise to the pinnacle and exhibit championship mettle unless he has sharked bets in his youth."

And later in the article:

" You've got to hate the man you're playing, and he's got to hate you. If you don't, you can't play your best game. "

The article also explains how when his father couldn't work anymore, Willie played to feed the family.

this article
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Yes, that's in the autobiography, too (Willie's Game). But in the book, Willie goes on: "During those years, I learned to shark bets with the best of them, but I never hustled anyone. I always declared myself and I never played anything less than my best game."

The co-author, Stanley Cohen, then explains how Willie distinguished between a pool shark and a hustler. Here's the portion about a shark (I'll omit the part about the hustler):

"The shark -- as good as his name -- has a quick nose for blood and an instinct for making the kill. He is schooled not only in his game but in the fine art of winning. He plays all the angles and has cultivated a sense that will detect the first crack in the composure of his opponent. He does not conceal his identity; others seek him out. He enlists their vanity as a confederate of his own. He allows their ambition to betray them. He nourishes their confidence. They believe that with a good run or two they can beat him; they can't. When they lose, it is with the conviction that their luck has run out; it is more often their bankroll."
 
JB Cases said:
So if Willie Mosconi, whom you said you would give a limb to take a lesson from, said a method of playing pool was good that you didn't agree with you would debate it with him?

I mean it seems like you are kind of undecided if you really think Willie was a pool god worth any price to spend time with or just another top player for you to argue with.
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Willie was a legend, one of a kind, a savant, genius, pick one. I do not debate individuals with that kind of stature.

Debate a top player? Meh, sure. Debate some of the "experts" running around? Oh yeah :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
leto1776 said:
Willie's game was straight pool, which uses a shorter bridge length. In his book "Play Your. Best Straight Pool," Phil Capelle recommends and 8-10" bridge for straight pool, while using a longer bridge on select shots. He also recommends standing a little taller in straight pool due to the shorts generally being shorter, much like Willie did.

If Willie deigned to play straight people and instruct them on it, I'm sure he would have recommended using a longer bridge.
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Also, it is my recollection -- having spent hours and hours of my misspent youth in places like Cochran's and The Palace in downtown San Francisco -- the tables were set up higher back then.

Lou Figueroa
 
ChicagoRJ said:
And that is the difference. Most folks don't want to shoot like a champion...most folks want to shoot better in leagues. They don't have the talent, desire or dedication to play at champion level. They just want to get a little better, they may want to get a lot better, but are not willing to put the practice time in.

And thus, if someone was moving up the food chain, and they wanted to turn pro, well he'll yeah, you need to hook up with a guy that has been there......but there are exceptions to that , because there have been great instructors in every sport who were not world beaters......not a lot, but they exist.
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Sure, most players have no shot or aspiration to play at a super high level. BUT a champion, having made the journey from tyro to champion, will be able to see where any particular player is on their pool journey and guide the player to their next level with appropriate instruction because they have made the trek from base camp to summit. Most instructors have not.

To illustrate, another player I took a lesson from was Dallas West. Will I ever play anything like Dallas? No, of course not. I'm light years from his level. However, towards the end of a four hour lesson he says to me, “You have a real nice touch, Lou. And, I know you didn’t want to get into basics, but… would you like to know what took me from being a 70-ball runner to the next level? Because I can see that’s where you’re at and it’s something you could work on.” And I said (wait for it), “Yes.” And he told me and frankly it’s not something I’m going to give away but it has helped me *A Lot.* In this same vein, he showed me two shots and their variants that he said were essential for me to learn to excel at straight pool (I knew one of them from my 1pocket endeavors, but not the other.)

Time with a champion can do that for you.

Lou Figueroa
 
td873 said:
Lou, you hit this nail on the head with that quote. Nobody should be going to Willie to figure out if their stroke needed tweaking. Just like nobody goes to Efren to figure out if they are right/left eye dominant or how their grip is.

You ask a champion how to play the game, not how to fix your fundamentals. The "instructors" seem to think that Willie wasn't a teacher because he couldn't make your pendulum work and didn't understand how long a tip is in contact with the cue ball. So what if he's ignorant on that. You shouldn't be asking him to teach you that anyway. Hell, there are a bunch of know-it-alls that can show how to hold a stick and stand.

Ask any guy who can run 100+ balls in straight if they would want a lesson from Willie or a (BCA) (PBIA) (Master) (Super) (Awesome) (Bestest) (Number 1) instructor, and I think you will have a 100% consensus. Ask a guy who eat McDonalds and you might get a different answer...

-td
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Yes.

And part of the problem is that there are certain instructors that believe there is only one way. Whether it be a certain set up, a pendulum stroke, shooting with a pause, a particular eye alignment, or whatever. They are wrong. And all you have to do is walk around any major tournament and see that the best players are, almost to a man, deploying highly idiosyncratic methods. The Filipinos with their loopy style, Earl his way, Shannon off to one side of his face, and on and on. Few look like anything in an instruction book and that's because there are endless ways to excel at pool.

I think that's because we all see and visualize the table and balls differently, our bodies are all different so we set up in different ways, and so we're all going to get our best results in a manner that is most likely different from the guy shooting next to us.

Maybe that's all because we're not machines stamped from the same mold and just because pool, as much as it is science, is also part art form.

Lou Figueroa
 
JoeyA said:
Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA
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Yes, the theory of instruction changes over time. Somewhat similarly, legendary golfer Bobby Jones taught that it was OK to bend the elbow a little during the takeaway in golf. Not how it is typically taught today, with the one piece takeaway on the way up viewed pretty much as gospel.

Today's best pool instructors, who will break your stroke down with video equipment and analyze each of your positions during the stroke, are, in my opinion, the best our sport has ever known.
 
I have the original little red book: Willie Mosconi on Pocket Billiards. I've also watched the 1 or 2 videos on YouTube where he gives instruction along with anything else of him that's available online. There's good advice (and bad) all over the internet and I have effectively used much of what several folks have offered up.

My regular "coach" is a former road player who idolizes Willie and others of that time. So I get a lot of Willie's methods and ideas passed down second and third hand. While I don't try to emulate Willie entirely, his contact point aiming is what I always used naturally when I played only by "feel" so I've been able to adopt several things successfully. I'm also right handed, left eye dominant, which doesn't mean much but is just another similarity I have with one of the greatest players to ever pick up a cue.

For what it's worth, I've also taken formal instruction from one of the top instructors in the country. This was without a doubt, the best investment I've ever made for myself in pool. It really helped define what I was doing, what I still need to do, and gave me my own personal roadmap with GPS to get to where I want to be. Not everything that was provided by the instructor will be applied, but there was a wealth of things to cherry-pick from.

Ideas and help can come from anywhere and sometimes they come from the darnedest places. Like some faceless name on AZB. For me, I like the diversity and taking good things from everywhere I happen to find them.
 
ShootingArts said:
Actually I'm quite sure that I didn't remember it from Willie's Game having never read it, someone else supplied that bit of info. A shame that you didn't use your ability to read the past, present, and future before playing Lou, you might be $10,000 richer and smarter!

Nobody but you particularly cares what I did or didn't do. In addition the stories are intended to amuse, that is why they are written. If purported to be true they are, some others are deliberately written over the top or tongue in cheek. You being totally lacking in humor, I can understand you not being able to understand the difference.

I noticed that you started this sequence of posts with Lou and I at the same time last night. You get a kick out of getting spanked by your betters don't you, you kinky little fella?

Hu
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and actually, you are wrong. had nothing to do with you...if any one else had made the same statement about Willie and Fats being friends I would have made the same response. only you took it as a personal affront.

as for Lou, he says he doesn't debate champions but in fact he clearly said he would tell Willie to stuff it if Willie dared to disagree with him....and Lou has certainly debated champions on here to the point that they even confronted him in person about it.
 
JB Cases said:
and actually, you are wrong. had nothing to do with you...if any one else had made the same statement about Willie and Fats being friends I would have made the same response. only you took it as a personal affront.

as for Lou, he says he doesn't debate champions but in fact he clearly said he would tell Willie to stuff it if Willie dared to disagree with him....and Lou has certainly debated champions on here to the point that they even confronted him in person about it.
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Once again, you demonstrate why no one should take what you say at face value.

Just further up this thread I clearly said I would not debate a *legend* like Mosconi but would a top player.

Then you go on to say that "champions" *plural* have confronted me in person for debating them. That is also false because the *one* champion I had a confrontation with ended up apologizing to me saying, “I want to apologize for Vegas. You didn’t deserve that. I was told by someone that you said something about me and when I told them that I had confronted you I could tell they started to back peddle. And I got upset and told them that you and I had almost had a fight over it.” I accepted the apology and in turn apologized to him. And, although we didn’t exactly kiss and hug, handshakes were exchanged.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
Once again, you demonstrate why no one should take what you say at face value.

Just further up this thread I clearly said I would not debate a *legend* like Mosconi but would a top player.

Then you go on to say that "champions" *plural* have confronted me in person for debating them. That is also false because the one champion I had a confrontation with ended up apologizing to me saying, “I want to apologize for Vegas. You didn’t deserve that. I was told by someone that you said something about me and when I told them that I had confronted you I could tell they started to back peddle. And I got upset and told them that you and I had almost had a fight over it.” I accepted the apology and in turn apologized to him. And, although we didn’t exactly kiss and hug, handshakes were exchanged.

Lou Figueroa
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I see. So just garden variety champions are fair game for you to tear down but Willie is off limits?

Lou, it's all good, you have your "way" about you. "Lou is Lou" and that is unlikely to ever change.

In my opinion, you simply are set in your ways and if someone says something to you that you already agree with then you're good with both the information AND the person. But if they don't say what you want to hear then both the person and the information are no good. That's not a good way to go through life in my opinion but it's one way and in the end is only a minor annoyance.

"Lou is Lou" equates to "that's life" and people just work around it.

I just thought before you offer to give up a limb to sit at Mosconi's feet you might want to consider that he might say something about playing pool that you don't agree with and there you would sit, missing an arm seething about what you gave up to someone based on your hero-worship hope that they would only say that which you already think is the right and only way to play.

'If Willie Mosconi himself were to rise from the dead and tell me that CTE was a useful method I'd say go back to sleep Willie' - paraphrased from Lou Figueroa. (exact quote forthcoming)
 
Thanks Stu, for the encouraging words! :thumbup: While it's true that instructional methods have changed over the years (the SPF style of teaching started 30 years ago, and is constantly being updated and revised, to convey the latest information on mechanics, eye movement, stroke process, and many other things). That said, we never try to shove anything down a student's throat. There are many great instructors out there who are not PBIA or SPF. Among them are Mark Wilson, David Sapolis, Joe Tucker, Little Joe Villapondo and many others. All any competent instructor can do is provide accurate information, make a case for why that information is relative to improving one's setup and delivery process...and let the student decide what they like and what they don't. Then you have to practice...and it's NEVER about hitting a million balls!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

sjm said:
Yes, the theory of instruction changes over time. Somewhat similarly, legendary golfer Bobby Jones taught that it was OK to bend the elbow a little during the takeaway in golf. Not how it is typically taught today, with the one piece takeaway on the way up viewed pretty much as gospel.

Today's best pool instructors, who will break your stroke down with video equipment and analyze each of your positions during the stroke, are, in my opinion, the best our sport has ever known.
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