Frozen ball question, actually 2

1) After contacting the OB, if the cue ball touches the same rail it is a legal shot.
2) I can't think of a scenario where a ball is frozen on the long rail. If it passes the side pocket and touches the rail on the other side, either the cue ball or something had to hit a rail someplace? IMO I would consider the long rail as 2 rails. So a pool table has 6 rails.
They have this in the BCA Rules.

-td
Long Rail.jpg
 
Read post #11 again. It is perfectly legal to have a ball frozen to the rail, hit it off the rail into another ball and have it carom back to the same rail for a good hit.

edit: http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-62.htm part 1 video, shot #6.

Read post #11 again.

EDIT: Disregard. I'm being a dick.

You should have said "another object ball" though. Because I think you know the bold part is the point he's trying to make.

That is not a good hit, a frozen ball has to be driven to a different rail, or the cueball has to contact that rail to be a legal hit. You can't kiss the object ball to the same rail, nor is the ball rolling out and back to the rail due to table roll or something counts as a contacting a rail. Has to be a different one.
 
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You can't kiss the object ball to the same rail, nor is the ball rolling out and back to the rail due to table roll or something counts as a contacting a rail. Has to be a different one.
Not true under WPA rules ("The Official Rules of Pool"). Here's definition 8.4 from the WPA rules:

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.


FYI, we have several game-situation examples that illustrate correct application of the frozen-ball rules in part 4 of NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz.

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: I wish all league systems and tournaments would follow the official rules of pool. It sure would make discussions and debates like this more clear.
 
That is not a good hit, a frozen ball has to be driven to a different rail, or the cueball has to contact that rail to be a legal hit. You can't kiss the object ball to the same rail, nor is the ball rolling out and back to the rail due to table roll or something counts as a contacting a rail. Has to be a different one.

Not true under WPA rules ("The Official Rules of Pool"). Here's definition 8.4 from the WPA rules:

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.


FYI, we have several game-situation examples that illustrate correct application of the frozen-ball rules in part 4 of NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz.

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: I wish all league systems and tournaments would follow the official rules of pool. It sure would make discussions and debates like this more clear.

According to what you wrote, highlighted above, you could shoot straight into a frozen ball and double kiss it back to the rail and it would not be a foul. Good luck if you ever gambled with anyone and tried that.

ONB
 
A situation came up in my 9 ball APA playoffs. Nine is frozen along side rail blocking most of the 8. Cue ball is down table near same rail. Player misses the 8 on the first pass but hits it on the return from the foot rail. 8 hits the 9 but nothing else hits anything. Foul is called but shooter thinks the 9 counts as the rail since it is frozen to the rail. All of the rule books only talk about a frozen ob but in this case the frozen ball was a 3rd party. Is the shooter possibly correct?
 
Nine must be declared frozen.

A situation came up in my 9 ball APA playoffs. Nine is frozen along side rail blocking most of the 8. Cue ball is down table near same rail. Player misses the 8 on the first pass but hits it on the return from the foot rail. 8 hits the 9 but nothing else hits anything. Foul is called but shooter thinks the 9 counts as the rail since it is frozen to the rail. All of the rule books only talk about a frozen ob but in this case the frozen ball was a 3rd party. Is the shooter possibly correct?

If the nine is declared frozen before the shot it is a foul. If not declared frozen before the shot it is not considered frozen and the nine hit a rail. The nine does not count as a rail.
 
According to what you wrote, highlighted above, you could shoot straight into a frozen ball and double kiss it back to the rail and it would not be a foul. Good luck if you ever gambled with anyone and tried that.

ONB
Somewhere on Dr. Dave's site is a video of exactly that shot. The object ball sinks into the cushion and is still touching the cushion when it hits the cue ball the second time. So, the object ball does not leave the cushion and then return and the shot does not satisfy the "driven to a rail" requirement.
 
Not true under WPA rules ("The Official Rules of Pool"). Here's definition 8.4 from the WPA rules:

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.


FYI, we have several game-situation examples that illustrate correct application of the frozen-ball rules in part 4 of NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz.

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: I wish all league systems and tournaments would follow the official rules of pool. It sure would make discussions and debates like this more clear.

This is from the BCA rules, also "official", part 3 and 4 seem to go together about contact a cushion to which it was not already in contact with. I've only heard this rule or the one where if the frozen ball comes off the cushion then hits another ball and back to the cushion, it's a good hit. I know I've seen instructional videos where they show examples of a frozen ball to rail hit and show that a ball that rolls out and back into the same cushion due to the divot or table roll is not considered having contacted a cushion.

.37. OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL. This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball's first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. after the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either (1) a ball being pocketed, or (2) the cue ball contacting a cushion, or (3) the frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion (not merely rebounding from the cushion it was frozen to), or (4) another object ball being caused to contact a cushion to which it was not already in contact with. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) An object ball is not considered frozen to a rail unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.

There is this also in part D "A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again."
.
3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.
 
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Yes. That's the one. The trick to that shot is the cue ball has to be at least sliding, preferably sliding with a slight backwards rotation when it contacts the object ball. This imparts collision induced follow to the object ball causing it to hold close to the rail. It is a killer safety because it breaks the guys heart. He is sure he has you in a trap and you hand it back to him with him in a bigger trap than he had you in.
 
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