Frozen Rail, and Slightly Off Rail Cut Shots

N

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Hey fellas,

I've been having a problem with frozen rail cut shots. A friend of mine suggested that I hit the rail first (like a mm before the OB) with inside English so the ball rolls nicely down the rail. I don't particularly like this method, so, I was wondering if anybody can offer other advice on hitting the OB first and not the rail.

I understand that there is some natural throw on cut shots like this, so, if you could please explain this phenomenon I'd appreciate it.

Thanks guys,

-NATIVE
 
If it doesn't look like it will scratch, use top english and hit ball and rail at same time. Works like a charm.
That came from Advanced Pool Lessons by Tor Lowry
 
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buckshotshoey said:
If it doesn't look like it will scratch, use top english and hit ball and rail at same time. Works like a charm.
That came from Advanced Pool Lessons by Tor Lowry
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Rail and ball at the same time only will work if the ball is less than 1.5 diamonds from the pocket or the table has buckets.....

I will say your friends advice is pretty sound but it's not the only way.. I watched Dennis Orcollo closely at the recent make it happen event and he tends to hit those shots ball first with outside and throws em to the pocket... I experimented with it quite a bit to gauge percentages and I may end up liking the outside approach after using inside for 20+ years on most frozen or almost frozen balls.....
 
Throw will push the object ball into the rail a bit, which is why people recommend hitting slightly rail first. (The inside English isn't necessary.) A trick that shows this principle is to set up two frozen balls on the rail, near the side pocket, and hit the combination at an angle. The ball will probably miss the corner pocket because throw pushes it into the rail. Then moisten the contact point between the balls, which reduces the throw. Now you can hit the combination ball anywhere and the second ball will go in the pocket.

If you hit ball first or ball and rail simultaneously, you could use a bit of outside English to remove the clingy throw and puts it on the correct angle.
 
when you hit a rail shot correctly,with the same size CB hopefully,you do hit the rail slightly before the OB. If you put inside english on it, its like hitting a rail first shot and spinning it in,it also probably imparts a little spin on the OB and causes it to pocket easier because of the reverse spin,they used to call if flopping the ball in when you banked it with the opposite spin, and hit close and the spin drew the ball in.
 
You can make a ball frozen to the rail with any or no spin. Using inside spin gives you a greater margin for error. The main problem is when you hit the object ball, it can be thrown into the rail slightly before it cuts. This can be solved by aiming a hair thinner and/or by increasing the speed of the shot.

Best,
Mike
 
buckshotshoey said:
If it doesn't look like it will scratch, use top english and hit ball and rail at same time. Works like a charm.
Click to expand...

buckshotshoey said:
http://youtu.be/KgMS7MaFlXc
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Hitting the cue ball top center just makes sure the cue ball is rolling naturally and doesn't do much to help pocket an object ball frozen to a rail (the main thing it might help some with is helping you to be as accurate as possible with your shot). As others have said, the best method is to hit the rail a very minute amount before the ball which works regardless of english or speed or distance to the pocket, etc (although you can come closer to hitting the ball at the same time as the rail if using outside, and can hit a little further from the ball if using inside at steep angles, etc). I think most people are just consciously aiming to hit both at the same time, and it is their subconscious that has learned to hit very slightly rail first, although it may be a conscious thought for many as well.
 
Sometimes we just over analyze things. I look for the positive. ....he made every one! And almost all of them were more then a diamond and a half away. Just do what works.
 
buckshotshoey said:
Sometimes we just over analyze things. I look for the positive.
Click to expand...
We should always be looking for truth, not whatever sounds positive or negative to us, IMO.

buckshotshoey said:
Just do what works.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and what works best is very slightly rail first. This can be scientifically proven. The guy made all the shots, but I can assure you he did not hit the ball and rail at the same time on all of them, and in those cases where he did (or where he may have even hit the ball very slightly first), he just happened to still be within the margin for error of making them with those balls on that particular table (meaning he didn't miss hit them by very much). All the shots that actually hugged the rail were shots where he hit the rail very slightly first. The ones that came out away from the rail were ones where he hit the ball first or at the same time.

Here is something you can do to prove what is actually happening. Freeze two balls together and both frozen to the rail about half way between a side and a corner pocket. Now put the cue ball near the middle of whichever end rail is closest to the two balls. Shoot the cue ball directly at the ball closest to you aiming to make a full ball hit. The object ball furthest from you should stay perfectly snug against the rail and hug it the whole way down to the corner, since both balls were frozen to the rail and the combination was dead, right? That isn't what will happen at all. What will happen is that the ball gets thrown into the rail (cut induced throw) and bounces out away from the rail slightly (making it essentially a very shallow bank shot), and it may or may not go into the corner pocket depending on how hard you hit it, how dirty the balls are, how far away the pocket is, etc.

This is exactly what happens when you hit the rail and a ball at the same time with the cue ball. It throws the object ball into the rail and it then rebounds out away from the rail just like a very shallow angle bank shot. Whether you can get away with still pocketing the ball or not this way all depends on how far away the pocket is (the further the pocket the less likely it goes), how hard you hit the shot (the softer you hit the more it throws), how dirty the balls are (the more dirty they are the more they throw), etc.
 
You have to be more accurate today than you did years ago. Todays new bouncy rail rubber and tighter pockets is the reason.
 
There are two shots here. Slightly off the rail VS on the rail.

The shot that is slightly off the rail you have a smaller margin of error than a shot out in the middle of the table. Hit it too thick and the cushion comes into play. You can use what ever english you like as really this is just another shot, but one you just have to hit very accurately.

The ball frozen to the rail I would use high cue ball or maybe just slightly high inside if you just want to cinch the ball. Outside english will tend to throw the object ball away from the cushion. You want the ball to hug the rail all the way down. You know you hit it perfect when the object ball never leaves the rail.

Best advice I can give you, practice the shot. When you practice don't just throw balls on the table and beat them around. The shots you are having problems with, set them up and work on them a small amount of time (don't do it too long or you will become sloppy and bored and it will do you no good).
I would say set up the shots maybe 15 times once you are warmed up, then move on to something else, then at the end of play maybe another 10-15 shots. Soon, if you work on your weaknesses, they will be like hangers. Asking for solutions is great, but you will only see progress if you work on those weak areas.
 
buckshotshoey said:
http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-134.htm

And here's what happens when you hit both with no english. It does say hitting ball while compressing and with stun. The vid shows cue ball rolling. Rail first requires running (inside) english.
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My computer is messing up at the moment so I am unable to watch the video and see which video you are referring to. I can tell you though if you hit the object ball and rail at the same time, the object ball will be pushed into the rail due to cut induced throw (CIT), and it will then rebound away from the rail enough to miss the pocket entirely if the pocket is far enough away. And you do not need inside english to hit rail first and make the object ball. Inside english increases your margin for error sometimes, particularly with the steep angle shots, but inside english is not required to make balls frozen to the rail when hitting very slightly rail first.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
If you really watch the shots, it seems that only a few of them are actually hugging the rail. Most of them came out a bit. Those that did hug the rail he probably hit slightly rail first.I don't think there is any "trick" to making frozen rail shots. You have to hit the slightly rail first for the same reason you need to hit most cut shots slightly thinner than ghostball theory would indicate, CIT. You could hit the ball and the rail simultaneously with outside and throw the object ball in, just like any other shot. I wouldn't want to develop a preference on these shots, because when the ball is frozen on the rail, english is more necessary than on any other kind of shot. You can't bend the path of the white before it reaches the rail, so english is what gives you control of the white. Therefore you need to be equally skilled with inside and outside, as well as center ball.
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Or....he hit object ball first, slighty, which caused it to come out. Here is a vid of a cue ball hitting rail first. In order to make the shot, running (inside english) is required.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-10.htm

I haven't yet found a vid with follow. Still looking.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
My computer is messing up at the moment so I am unable to watch the video and see which video you are referring to. I can tell you though if you hit the object ball and rail at the same time, the object ball will be pushed into the rail due to cut induced throw (CIT), and it will then rebound away from the rail enough to miss the pocket entirely if the pocket is far enough away. And you do not need inside english to hit rail first and make the object ball. Inside english increases your margin for error sometimes, particularly with the steep angle shots, but inside english is not required to make balls frozen to the rail when hitting very slightly rail first.
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Check them when you can. Its high speed video from Colorado billiard academy. They have a hundred of them. Practically every billiard shot you can imagine. Really cool.
 
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Many factors are in play.

Poolplaya9 said:
My computer is messing up at the moment so I am unable to watch the video and see which video you are referring to. I can tell you though if you hit the object ball and rail at the same time, the object ball will be pushed into the rail due to cut induced throw (CIT), and it will then rebound away from the rail enough to miss the pocket entirely if the pocket is far enough away. And you do not need inside english to hit rail first and make the object ball. Inside english increases your margin for error sometimes, particularly with the steep angle shots, but inside english is not required to make balls frozen to the rail when hitting very slightly rail first.
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The truth is you can pocket the ball hitting both at the same time, rail first, or ball first depending on the situation and factors in play such as english used, cut angle, speed needed, distance, etc.

I'll use an example of hitting both at the same time. The collision induced throw is going to drive the ob into the rail but cit can be canceled out by using outside english. So if outside english is preferred for the shot you need to be aware of if you need to hit both at the same time. On top of that the thicker the hit, or smaller cut angles, will require less english to cancel the cit because the english induced throw will be more powerful than the cit. If a lot of outside is wanted on a small cut angle you may need to hit ball first for this reason.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Check them when you can. Its high speed video from Colorado billiard academy. They have a hundred of them. Practically every billiard shot you can imagine. Really cool.
Click to expand...

I've seen all of them before. The entire site is great. Almost always when you hit the object ball first or at the same time as the rail, it will cause the object ball to be forced into and then rebound away from the cushion. Hence when hitting the cushion very slightly first is almost always a good idea, and inside english is not needed to make the ball this way.
 
(((Satori))) said:
The truth is you can pocket the ball hitting both at the same time, rail first, or ball first depending on the situation and factors in play such as english used, cut angle, speed needed, distance, etc.

I'll use an example of hitting both at the same time. The collision induced throw is going to drive the ob into the rail but cit can be canceled out by using outside english. On top of that the thicker the hit, or smaller cut angles, will require less english to cancel the cit because the english induced throw will be more powerful than the cit. If a lot of outside is wanted on a small cut angle you may need to hit ball first for this reason.
Click to expand...

This is mostly correct but I am trying not to get too complicated with the explanations. What you left out as a factor though is how dirty the balls are, which is probably the most significant factor of all. You also left out what amount of english is used (a quarter tip or two tips etc) not just the type. Keeping it as simple as possible though, for the vast majority of balls frozen to the rail, it is best to hit slightly rail first. Your subconscious will learn to do what it needs to over time for all situations, but if you needed to think about it just one way on a conscious level while learning, this would be the best one--slightly rail first.
 
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