fundamentals 2

Black-Balled

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Read the first fundamentals and did enjoy it. I am going to have my pool chops tested soon and will certainly be looking for something solid to stand on. The stroke seems like the obvious place to build from...thanks.

I have a question about the other end of the stick tho. The front end. I have often heard talk on 3c tapes about the bridge hand and the role it plays in the execution of shots, not pertaining to the obvious function of aim, but in the generation of subtle forces as a result of the bridge configuration.

For instance, 1 (below) vs. 2:

How does the tension in the front hand affect the stroke delivery and why is it that pool-players (can?) seem to ignore it's effects?

Thanks, Deno. It all made sense in my head :eek:
 

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Black-Balled

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fiasco

pic 2
Somehow I have chosen a pic that changes. I meant the example to be the bridge used by Sang Lee (RIP). I am a disaster today!
 

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Bob Jewett

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Black-Balled said:
pic 2
Somehow I have chosen a pic that changes. I meant the example to be the bridge used by Sang Lee (RIP). I am a disaster today!
I think few pool players go at their bridges in any organized manner. I doubt that any instructor would recommend the bridge in the Bustamante picture. He is a natural player who does not include standard fundamentals in his technique.

The illustration of Sang Lee's bridge shows that standard closed carom bridge. The fingers are not spread. In other situations and for specific kinds of shots, some carom instructors do recommend spreading the fingers.
 

Deno J. Andrews

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As you alluded to, the most important function of the bridge is aiming...well, accuracy of aiming really. The bride of that pool player that you posted is absurd, and it blows my mind every time I see pool players playing like that. Funny thing is though, it is a real testament to the quality of their strokes that they can overcome such a negative variable. Despite the bridge appearing to be very tight on the cue, it is probably not so tight in his fingers. A smooth shaft also help the cue to glide through tighter spaces. The same is true for billiard players...it looks like we are bridging tightly, but in reality, the bridges while being solid, do leave some room for the cue.

All the talk about the bridge having a function in the stroke is really in my opinion not worth much. Sang Lee had some of the most diverse bridges. His hands were soft and were able to create some very nice bridges. His bridges though, and I have learned this from him personally, are only a function of accuracy and ensuring that the cue stick has no other option but to be delivered where you want it to go. On extreme draw shots, instead of a longer bridge and some elevation, he would lay his hand nearly flat like in the picture you showed, and loop his finger over the cue and keep the cue as level as possible. This made coming up on the ball impossible and that was the point. Same with high ball- he would use the stack bridge and made it so high with a level cue that the cue had no option but to strike the ball that way.

So be careful not to buy into the more esoteric stuff for a couple reasons...one, most of them are wrong, and two, most of them are wrong :)

Deno
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
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Deno J. Andrews said:
The bride of that pool player that you posted is absurd, and it blows my mind every time I see pool players playing like that.

All the talk about the bridge having a function in the stroke is really in my opinion not worth much...bridges though, and I have learned this from him personally, are only a function of accuracy and ensuring that the cue stick has no other option but to be delivered where you want it to go...

So be careful not to buy into the more esoteric stuff for a couple reasons...one, most of them are wrong, and two, most of them are wrong :)

Deno

Yeah, that pool bridge is something that I find myself using often. Gonna try to get rid of it...just feels so cool :rolleyes: !

Thanks for the input, Bob & Deno!!
 

cueball1950

AzB Silver Member
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Deno J. Andrews said:
As you alluded to, the most important function of the bridge is aiming...well, accuracy of aiming really. The bride of that pool player that you posted is absurd, and it blows my mind every time I see pool players playing like that. Funny thing is though, it is a real testament to the quality of their strokes that they can overcome such a negative variable. Despite the bridge appearing to be very tight on the cue, it is probably not so tight in his fingers. A smooth shaft also help the cue to glide through tighter spaces. The same is true for billiard players...it looks like we are bridging tightly, but in reality, the bridges while being solid, do leave some room for the cue.

All the talk about the bridge having a function in the stroke is really in my opinion not worth much. Sang Lee had some of the most diverse bridges. His hands were soft and were able to create some very nice bridges. His bridges though, and I have learned this from him personally, are only a function of accuracy and ensuring that the cue stick has no other option but to be delivered where you want it to go. On extreme draw shots, instead of a longer bridge and some elevation, he would lay his hand nearly flat like in the picture you showed, and loop his finger over the cue and keep the cue as level as possible. This made coming up on the ball impossible and that was the point. Same with high ball- he would use the stack bridge and made it so high with a level cue that the cue had no option but to strike the ball that way.

So be careful not to buy into the more esoteric stuff for a couple reasons...one, most of them are wrong, and two, most of them are wrong :)

Deno



Deno... as a long time and very avid and above average (in my opinion only) billiard player i most always use a closed bridge like the one that francisco bustamante is using in that picture. Unless i am drawing the ball. I will also find mysel using an open bridge for some shots. I play mainly on a gold crown 2 billiard table, 5x10,. we also have a soren sorgaard that was bought from the old Golden Cue on queens Blvd. as a matter of fact the last time i played Johnny Ervelino 3 cushion billiards was on this table. And yes he beat me 25/21 and we had fun. And that is all that matters. may i ask where you are from Deno?.................mike
 
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Black-Balled

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cueball1950 said:
Deno... i have to agree with you 100%. as a long time and very avid and above average (in my opinion only) billiard player i most always use a closed bridge like the one that francisco bustamante is using in that picture. .................mike

I do believe you misread- If you go back, you will see that Deno's opinion was that the pool player's bridge was 'absurd'. I ain't learned all the smarts in the world, but I know that means it ain't no good.
Welcome to the no-hole page. I like it here and hope you post often, Mike!
 

predator

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I believe that Bustamante bridge is stable apart from the fact that he supports a lot of weight with just 2 fingers??? :eek:

Isn't it better to lay your bridge arm down on the cloth? I will never understand what's the advantage of having nearly your whole bridge arm in the air? Looks cool I guess to some...
 

Deno J. Andrews

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I am sure there are many who can use that bridge well. In my opinion it is just a waste of energy and an awful lot of potential break down. I am also of the opinion that if it works for you, keep doing it. In the case of Bustamante, he is a great player and his style works for him. If he were to adopt a different bridge repertoire, would it really increase his accuracy or consistency? Maybe...but maybe not.

Deno
 
S

sonia

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Two Tip Busta

predator said:
I believe that Bustamante bridge is stable apart from the fact that he supports a lot of weight with just 2 fingers??? :eek:

Isn't it better to lay your bridge arm down on the cloth? I will never understand what's the advantage of having nearly your whole bridge arm in the air? Looks cool I guess to some...

BUSTAMANTE HAS NO WEIGHT ON HIS TWO FINGER TIPS.

SONIA
 

LastTwo

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There is not much weight on Bustamante's fingertips. If you pay attention to his stance you would notice that his weight is to the back. It may appear in this photo that he is leaning forward, but if you saw his legs you would know that his upper body is like that to even out the balance. Alot of players stand with their lower body weight back and their upper body forward for an even balance. Efren does this too.
 

Deno J. Andrews

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Agreed there is not as much weight as it might appear is there, but there is still substantial enough weight on the bridge to help stabilize it. It doesn't matter where his body weight is, something is holding the weight of his arm- muscles or bridge (or obviously some combo of both). If he is holding the arm up using mostly muscle, his arm would be jello after a couple matches.
Deno
 

LastTwo

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Deno J. Andrews said:
Agreed there is not as much weight as it might appear is there, but there is still substantial enough weight on the bridge to help stabilize it. It doesn't matter where his body weight is, something is holding the weight of his arm- muscles or bridge (or obviously some combo of both). If he is holding the arm up using mostly muscle, his arm would be jello after a couple matches.
Deno

Next time you get down in your stance, try putting all your weight back, so much to the point that there is a 'pulling' feeling on your bridge hand. Bustamante is able to keep his bridge very stable like this. You are right however, that this is not a very good way to learn to bridge. Most people wouldn't be able to keep their bridge as stable as him. I try to make sure my arm is resting on the table, unless of course there are balls in the way and I can't.
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
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LastTwo said:
Next time you get down in your stance, try putting all your weight back, so much to the point that there is a 'pulling' feeling on your bridge hand. Bustamante is able to keep his bridge very stable like this. You are right however, that this is not a very good way to learn to bridge. Most people wouldn't be able to keep their bridge as stable as him. I try to make sure my arm is resting on the table, unless of course there are balls in the way and I can't.
I agree that a back-balanced stance takes some weight from the bridge hand. However, try this to understand my point-

Sit down at your desk and make his bridge and hold your hand out to the side, with a fully extended arm, and see how long you can hold it up there before getting tired. After about two or three minutes your arm will feel very heavy and tired simply from the weight of the arm. Now do the same thing but rest your bridge on a table, and you can sit there for hours if you had to without getting tired. The weight of the arm alone is substantial, and if he were holding the weight of his arm so that his bridge hand was barely touching the table, he would not be able to play for very long.

Deno
 

LastTwo

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Deno J. Andrews said:
I agree that a back-balanced stance takes some weight from the bridge hand. However, try this to understand my point-

Sit down at your desk and make his bridge and hold your hand out to the side, with a fully extended arm, and see how long you can hold it up there before getting tired. After about two or three minutes your arm will feel very heavy and tired simply from the weight of the arm. Now do the same thing but rest your bridge on a table, and you can sit there for hours if you had to without getting tired. The weight of the arm alone is substantial, and if he were holding the weight of his arm so that his bridge hand was barely touching the table, he would not be able to play for very long.

Deno

Trust me I understand your point, but also take this into consideration- If I were to do one push-up every 5 minutes, I could do many more in a row than I could do without stopping (provided I had the time to do one every 5 minutes). He does have some uneeded pressure on his bridge, but that pressure is only there for a few seconds while he takes his strokes. After he gets up off the shot his muscles can relax. If he were to stay in that position for a few minutes he would get very tired. But the fact that he only tenses those muscles for a very short time period, and can relax them for an even longer time period (when he is up off the table), his energy will be conserved and his muscles getting tired from that bridge is not even an issue. Even as the match wears on for an hour or two, his muscles are having plenty of time to relax and not get worn out.

Also, please don't take this as though I am acting like I know more than you. You are one of the best players in the world and I am not even close to your level. I am just stating information that I've learned and gladly listening to what you know, I'm not trying to argue.
 
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Deno J. Andrews

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I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. This is not about his bridge hand, it is about what is holding up his arm. Originally you (I think it was you) suggested that there was no weight on his bridge hand. My point was that without weight, his bridge hand would be unstable at best, and therefore he must be putting someweight on it. A secondary reason was that his arm would become tired over time if he really were supporting his whole arm on these shots without letting the bridge hand take some of the weight. So it is not about the bridge hand becoming tired, it is his arm, that is, if the bridge hand doesn't take much of the weight of the arm on shots. I believe that if you were to have a scale under his bridge hand when he is down on a shot, that you would be very surprised just how "heavy" the bridge hand is...and that is what is supporting much of the weight of the arm when he is down on a shot.
Deno
 

LastTwo

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Deno J. Andrews said:
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. This is not about his bridge hand, it is about what is holding up his arm. Originally you (I think it was you) suggested that there was no weight on his bridge hand. My point was that without weight, his bridge hand would be unstable at best, and therefore he must be putting someweight on it. A secondary reason was that his arm would become tired over time if he really were supporting his whole arm on these shots without letting the bridge hand take some of the weight. So it is not about the bridge hand becoming tired, it is his arm, that is, if the bridge hand doesn't take much of the weight of the arm on shots. I believe that if you were to have a scale under his bridge hand when he is down on a shot, that you would be very surprised just how "heavy" the bridge hand is...and that is what is supporting much of the weight of the arm when he is down on a shot.
Deno

I see what you're saying now, I agree.
 
S

sonia

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best player in the world?

LastTwo said:
Trust me I understand your point, but also take this into consideration- If I were to do one push-up every 5 minutes, I could do many more in a row than I could do without stopping (provided I had the time to do one every 5 minutes). He does have some uneeded pressure on his bridge, but that pressure is only there for a few seconds while he takes his strokes. After he gets up off the shot his muscles can relax. If he were to stay in that position for a few minutes he would get very tired. But the fact that he only tenses those muscles for a very short time period, and can relax them for an even longer time period (when he is up off the table), his energy will be conserved and his muscles getting tired from that bridge is not even an issue. Even as the match wears on for an hour or two, his muscles are having plenty of time to relax and not get worn out.

Also, please don't take this as though I am acting like I know more than you. You are one of the best players in the world and I am not even close to your level. I am just stating information that I've learned and gladly listening to what you know, I'm not trying to argue.

who are you saying is one of the best players in the world????

sonia
 
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