Gambling DOES NOT help your game, ever!

smashmouth said:
Alot of you guys are speaking from opinion only, yours.
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No, its a fact that gambling on pool has definately helped my game.

Might be different for others, but i think the majority of people who have gambled playing pool win or lose learn things about the game and improve even if it is the slightest bit.

Yeah, I could care less which pro you talked to, its all based on personal preference and personal experience. Pro A could say I never learned anything from gambling, when Amateur A could say I learned how to play decent position on a shot thanks to a guy that had to shoot it in a match I lost 10 dollars in.

Its all based on personal preference and personal experience.

Your OPINION is that gambling will not help a player improve, when it is a FACT that gambling has improved MY game.

So far you are more wrong.
 
smashmouth said:
3 cushion pros as a general rule do not gamble, they practice.
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True. However, once a while they will wager a private game for a huge amount of money as their leasure "gentleman' game".

On the other hand, I once happened to see a "friendly ring game" with Sang Lee, Blomdahl, Sayginer, Korean Champion, Caudron. Ceulemans was the ref. one dollar from every other players for 1 point gained, double that for rail first shot (Sang Lee specialty), $5 for a foul to the house. This was not a slow game since everyone can score 7,8 points when coming to the table. Nevertheless it was a great display of friendship among humanbeings.
 
Again, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I submit that it is not a fact
that it has improved your game, simplay a perception.

I don't expect any but the most open minded people to agree with the above statement, it can be very insulting to some to suggest that they are not interpreting their own experiences correctly.
 
I was trying not to respond but I can't take it. I learnd how to play bye playing better players for a small amount,I learned a few thing for my money.First I don't like giving up my hard earned cash.Second you have to learn how to win and loose with grace and dignity.You must learn how to deal with alot of presure and still be able to think clearly and stay with your fundamentals(stance,stroke,grip,ect.) I don't think I would play as well as I do If I did not grow up playing for money.I am not saying you cant learn these things with out gambling but it put things in a diferant light. That is just the way I see it.
 
Alot of the gambling infatuation in my opinion is due to a lazy mentality.

Drilling is boring, tough, and frustrating.
Matches are fun. Gambling is exciting.

It was alluded that I've had bad experiences gambling, I would say the opposite is true, reason being, I've only gambled for fun, never under the illusion that I was learning anything or going to win money.

I've been out of the loop for a while, the whole IPT thing has renewed my interest.

I believe my theories and opinions on the game are as sound as anyone's, the playing portion however leaves much to be desired.
 
Smash, you ignore the fact that IPT players played for cash to prepare for the IPT after dismissing it. I have grown up around proffessional snooker players, my town although small is arguably one of the most prominent snooker towns in the UK producing several world classs players if not a world champion. If you indeed did ask the snooker players you quote you may have misinterpreted what they said. I know snooker players have hardly ever played for the amounts they see in the US, and hustling isnt really a part of the game. However they still play various games such as golf (on a snooker table) and points not to mention small wagers to build pressure resilience. YEs they practice 8 hours a day in addition to this but to neglect this "match play" preparation would be unprofessional and foolish.

Maybe we are talking about different things, maybe you are talking about guys that berate you to play $1000 sets and rob you, or guys that just mouth off all night when they match up, this is NOT what I'm talking about. Wei summed it up very well, but you can't get away from the fact that playing in a high profile tournament for $1000's of dollars under intense pressure is very different from practising even if you played 16 hours a day.

May I suggest that you try to get get yourself into such a position and come back and share your findings with us? ;)
 
smashmouth said:
Again, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I submit that it is not a fact
that it has improved your game, simplay a perception.

I don't expect any but the most open minded people to agree with the above statement, it can be very insulting to some to suggest that they are not interpreting their own experiences correctly.
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You re absolutely correct. It is insulting for a couple of reasons.

1. You have never seen me shoot.
2. You have not witnessed my level of progression
3. You have not kept a record of wins and losses and have a budget set aside for small gambling for me, like I do.
4. You have never witnessed me play for money
5 You have never witnessed me play for fun
6. You have never witnessed me practice
7. You ASSUME to much about people you dont know

You are being extremely arrogant. You can say Im not open midned all you want, but if what you say above is true then you are the one being more close minded, especially when the majority of this pool player forum (that contains players who are pros and shoot at pro level) disagree with you.

You need to open your mind to the other side of the tracks.

A better thread to start should have been called "gambling does not always help certain peoples game" or better yet "gambling does not help my game" Or even better yet "I dont gamble so I want to talk others out of it by dropping a few irrate lines of BS and inexperience"
 
smashmouth said:
Alot of the gambling infatuation in my opinion is due to a lazy mentality.

Drilling is boring, tough, and frustrating.
Matches are fun. Gambling is exciting.
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Here you are being close minded and opinionated again due to your own PERSONAL experiences.

I shoot drills everyday and I find pleasure in it. I shoot drills 10 times more then I gamble, but gambling was still an important part in helping my game (specifically the mental/competitive part) improve. This is a FACT about my game. You CANNOT tell me it isnt.
 
smashmouth said:
Alot of the gambling infatuation in my opinion is due to a lazy mentality.

Drilling is boring, tough, and frustrating.
Matches are fun. Gambling is exciting.

It was alluded that I've had bad experiences gambling, I would say the opposite is true, reason being, I've only gambled for fun, never under the illusion that I was learning anything or going to win money.

I've been out of the loop for a while, the whole IPT thing has renewed my interest.

I believe my theories and opinions on the game are as sound as anyone's, the playing portion however leaves much to be desired.
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It has been mentioned a few times that it is not so much the act of putting money on the line as it is playing under pressure. I think when people say that gambling helps their game it is more from a match playing perspective as well as the mental game.

Gambling hasn't made me pocket more balls, but it sure has helped me learn to deal with the pressure. If you can duplicate the pressure of a match or tournament in any other way I think it will be just as helpful. Often times my own pride is enough to make me concentrate, its a "I can't lose to this guy" kind of thing.

Your right people like to gamble and play matches because it is fun. I don't see anything wrong with that though, as long as it doesn't become a problem. I only bet what I can afford to lose regardless of who I am playing. I turned down a match offer from a guy I knew I could beat, but I had just payed my tuition so money was a little tight.
 
I'm not assuming I can speak for everyone, I'm putting forth a principle that applies to everyone, big difference.

The same way one might say smoking is bad for your health. Research now shows that statement to be correct and applicable to everyone. If I say smoking is bad FOR YOU, and you disagree, who is right?


The problem with both sides of this argument is there is no proper research on the subject.

The best I can offer is to invite you to get some insight from touring Pros and world champions and see what they say on the matter. In the absence of concrete proof, an open minded person would put stock into what they say, particularly when they all say the same thing.
 
smashmouth said:
I'm not assuming I can speak for everyone, I'm putting forth a principle that applies to everyone, big difference.

The same way one might say smoking is bad for your health. Research now shows that statement to be correct and applicable to everyone. If I say smoking is bad FOR YOU, and you disagree, who is right?


The problem with both sides of this argument is there is no proper research on the subject.

The best I can offer is to invite you to get some insight from touring Pros and world champions and see what they say on the matter. In the absence of concrete proof, an open minded person would put stock into what they say, particularly when they all say the same thing.
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Quite amusing but I thought I would share this..I just turned on EuroSport and snooker was on. Mike Hallet a guy I know from my home town (who I saw on Sat actually) is commentating, he's an ex pro as Im sure you know he was ranked 6 in the world at one time. He said..

"Ding is very sharp, I know he's played a series of about 10 matches (for cash of course on TV) in China, great match practice"

You seem to pick and choose your "facts" I have contributed many which you have chosen to ignore rather than debate. I think its safe to say you are simply looking for a bun fight <--- opps, it just slipped out! :p
 
What gambling does do is bring out the true speed of your opponent.

So in effect it will give you an idea of how good you are.

If you lose the money then you go and practice, and practice, and practice some more and come back and see if you can beat this guy.

If you keep losing the cash then at some point you have to realize that you just are not in his league.

That is what people addicted to gambling just can not do. Admit that they lost because they are not good enough.

In an article about Efren is was stated that he gambles. But he gambles to make money. Not to learn how to play.

Now that kind of gambling makes sense. Any other kind is stupid.

Jake
 
Your Joking Right???

smashmouth said:
Not at all, under any circumstances, period! It's a myth.

In what other sports do you see amateurs playing for money in order to
improve their game? It doesn't happen. Ask any professional athlete
how much money they've gambled for while learning their sport, they won't
have a clue what you're referring to.

Learning is accomplished through practice drills, playing against
others at your level, more practice drills, even more practice drills, and
good coaching for those who can afford it.

Losing $500 to a top pro is not learning, it's stupid. There are LEGIONS of top pros out there who will provide you with instruction at rates far cheaper than what pros in other sports charge, many of them will be ecstatic to be getting paid for teaching, guaranteed cash for them with no pressure to bring home the cheese.

Pool players in general have for the most part rejected the idea of a coach being usefull to them, as a result, there is little demand for instruction from top pros. Occassionally, people will take some lessons from some no name "BCA certified" instructor who couldn't run 3 balls on a good day.

I once had Jim Rempe intruct me for $75 an hour CANADIAN!!!!! He seemed pleasantly surprised when I approched him after an exhibition and made an offer.

A few years back, Cliff frickin Thornburn was teaching 90 min sessions for
a hundred bucks! CLIFF THORNBURN people!

And they TAUGHT me things, I was their pupil for that time, not the enemy across the table trying to snatch their dough.

What other sport will World Champions offer instruction as such great rates? If you look at golf for example, I bet many here couldn't even afford a session with the COACHES of PGA pros, let alone the pros themselves.

Gambling with the notion that you will improve your game is plain dumb, if it was truly a usefull method of learning, it would be incorporated in many more walks of life.

Gamble for fun, gamble for profit, but don't fall into the trap of believeing you're actually learning something.
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There are no drills, or books to read, or anything else that will give you that competitive edge like putting your money on the light. I challenge you to find me 5 world class players that can honestly say that they got where they are without gambling. Or truly believe they would have made it that far without it.

Joe


P.S. did you get busted by a better player recently?
 
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smashmouth said:
I'm not assuming I can speak for everyone, I'm putting forth a principle that applies to everyone, big difference.

The same way one might say smoking is bad for your health. Research now shows that statement to be correct and applicable to everyone. If I say smoking is bad FOR YOU, and you disagree, who is right?


The problem with both sides of this argument is there is no proper research on the subject.

The best I can offer is to invite you to get some insight from touring Pros and world champions and see what they say on the matter. In the absence of concrete proof, an open minded person would put stock into what they say, particularly when they all say the same thing.
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The thing that you are missing is that there are two types of practice that must be done to become a pro. First, you have to practice and build your fundamental skills by doing drills and shooting thousands upon thousands of balls. Secondly, you have to practice under competition situations by playing in tournaments, playing better players or gambling. They are all a means to an end. The thing that you've been leaving out, and that other's have been trying to get across, is that you have to practice under pressure to reach a top level of play and a lot of people do this by wagering on the outcome of games or sets.
 
nyjoe14.1 said:
There are no drills, or books to read, or anything else that will give you that competitive edge like putting your money on the light. I challenge you to find me 5 world class players that can honestly say that they got where they are without gambling. Or truly believe they would have made it that far without it.

Joe
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Well hohmann is supposed to not gamble so it is possible,but he almost certainly built up his pressure resilience due to playing at the sharp end of tournaments week in and out. Darly peach also doesnt gamble I believe and he didnt do to badly in the NA Open pocketing 30k.
 
I'm not looking to incite anything so I will close with this.

Judging one's own personal performance is a very difficult thing to do.

If you think you're helping your game and choose to ignore the possibility that you're not, ultimately that is your choice.

I have looked at this from both sides which is something that can not be said for many of you. Sometimes however there is such a thing as clear cut right/wrong, black/white, in my opinion, and the opinion of many champions I've spoken with (champions that are as accesible as the next major tourney), gambling will not benefit your game.
 
One of the things that the Europeans do that Americans don't necessarily focus on are drills. Keeping score and charting progress or regression is their pressure and monitoring system, not gambling and how much money they have in their pocket.
 
smashmouth said:
Not at all, under any circumstances, period! It's a myth.

In what other sports do you see amateurs playing for money in order to
improve their game? It doesn't happen. Ask any professional athlete
how much money they've gambled for while learning their sport, they won't
have a clue what you're referring to.

Learning is accomplished through practice drills, playing against
others at your level, more practice drills, even more practice drills, and
good coaching for those who can afford it.

Losing $500 to a top pro is not learning, it's stupid. There are LEGIONS of top pros out there who will provide you with instruction at rates far cheaper than what pros in other sports charge, many of them will be ecstatic to be getting paid for teaching, guaranteed cash for them with no pressure to bring home the cheese.

Pool players in general have for the most part rejected the idea of a coach being usefull to them, as a result, there is little demand for instruction from top pros. Occassionally, people will take some lessons from some no name "BCA certified" instructor who couldn't run 3 balls on a good day.

I once had Jim Rempe intruct me for $75 an hour CANADIAN!!!!! He seemed pleasantly surprised when I approched him after an exhibition and made an offer.

A few years back, Cliff frickin Thornburn was teaching 90 min sessions for
a hundred bucks! CLIFF THORNBURN people!

And they TAUGHT me things, I was their pupil for that time, not the enemy across the table trying to snatch their dough.

What other sport will World Champions offer instruction as such great rates? If you look at golf for example, I bet many here couldn't even afford a session with the COACHES of PGA pros, let alone the pros themselves.

Gambling with the notion that you will improve your game is plain dumb, if it was truly a usefull method of learning, it would be incorporated in many more walks of life.

Gamble for fun, gamble for profit, but don't fall into the trap of believeing you're actually learning something.
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Playing in lots of tournaments clearly helps improve the players game. Gambling also adds value in dealing with pressure. I'm not advocating gambling but to many it does add excitement and it is an individual thing.

I have seen many players fold when they gamble and others heighten their performance.
 
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