Gambling DOES NOT help your game, ever!

catscradle said:
That isn't an accurate restatement of Smashmouth's idea. If player 2 also takes the money he would have lost gambling and spends it on lessons, then it is a test of his theory.
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I'd still take player 1, unless of course the instructor has a gun and threatens to shoot player 2 if he missed. Otherwise he's simply not improving an essential part of player 2's game, pressure resilience.

I've seen quite a few players that would be world champions if they could recreate their practise game in a match. This is what seperates the best from the rest, I would hazzard a guess if you could in some way compare every players "practise game" without matching them up (and of course creating pressure) then the top order of the game would be considerably different than what we see now.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Before you promote or dismiss gambling, I think you should look at a number of things and make your assessments from there. For starters, the brain does some rather interesting things when you are in fear-mode. We all know about what pressure feels like but there's more. When you're in fear-mode, your brain is taking record of all the events. You will never forget anything that happens while in fear-mode. Your brain does this because it wants to improve how to handle this situation the next time it arises. When you don't feel fear, you forget what happened and you don't learn anything.

Now, with that said, you can accomplish quite a bit if you're constantly putting yourself in fear-mode. Your game will inevitably improve. The question then becomes, what does it take to accomplish this? If you're risking your rent-money then I would say you've taken this game too far. If all it takes an important league-match, then I'd say you have a healthy approach.

It's not too dissimilar to extreme-athletes who feel a need to up their challenges so they feel that adreneline-rush. For some, skiing down a mountain does it. For others, they need to jump out of an airplane. My suggestion would be to keep it in check. You don't need to elevate your risk. You simply need to have a risk.
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I'm not convinced that gambling is necessary to improve your concentration. In sports like chess, for example, chess players are able to concentrate at a high level and improve their game too. Ditto for other sports, as well.

If gambling a certain amount of money, say $200, helps player A "concentrate better," then by the same token it should also help player B concentrate better too.

While losing $200 may not be betting the month's rent, depending upon your income losing $200 can still represent a sizable monetary loss for pool players who may not earn much to start with. Gamblers' who lose money often feel compelled to gamble even more to make up for what they lost.

It many ways gambling at pool is a zero-sum game. For every winner, there's a loser.
 
Ask yourself this, if gambling is so helpfull, then why is not prevelant
in other forms of sport?

Again, only pool players seem to have this mentality. Snooker and 3
cushion pros as a general rule do not gamble (except Quinten Hann, lol), they practice.

Don't believe me, ask any of em at Sang Lee's NYC room or speak to any
of the snooker guys if you're passing through for the Reno tourney.
 
smashmouth said:
Ask yourself this, if gambling is so helpfull, then why is not prevelant
in other forms of sport?

Again, only pool players seem to have this mentality. Snooker and 3
cushion pros as a general rule do not gamble (except Quinten Hann, lol), they practice.

Don't believe me, ask any of em at Sang Lee's NYC room or speak to any
of the snooker guys if you're passing through for the Reno tourney.
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Chess players gamble.
Golfers gamble.
Basketball players gamble.
Bowlers gamble.
Pool players gamble b/c NERVES is a huge part of this game. The more you experience it, the better you get at dealing with it.
 
smashmouth said:
Ask yourself this, if gambling is so helpfull, then why is not prevelant
in other forms of sport?

Again, only pool players seem to have this mentality. Snooker and 3
cushion pros as a general rule do not gamble (except Quinten Hann, lol), they practice.

Don't believe me, ask any of em at Sang Lee's NYC room or speak to any
of the snooker guys if you're passing through for the Reno tourney.
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Most professional sports make it illegal for you to bet if you are currently involved in the game. (Pete Rose anyone?)

It's also bad for professional athlete's 'image' if they are caught gambling in any form. A-Rod recently had to stop playing high stakes poker because of this reason.

you also brought up Jordan before and it's been known that he plays golf for some serious cash. It made the newswires a few years back due to the amounts that he supposely bet and lost. Same with Charles Barkley.

Oh, and I understand that Andre Agassi was a tennis "hustler" before he turned pro.

So you're whole analogy of pro athletes not using gambling to improve concentration doesn't really hold water as they do gamble. Might not be in the sport that they're the best at - but they gamble none the less.
 
One last thing, I know this may sound arrogant, but I respectfully put forward that those who believe gambling has helped their game are fooling themselves.

Before you crucify me, remember that it wan't too long ago that
most of the pool playing pros out there didn't even believe that cue ball spin could be imparted to an object ball.

And it was only a few years ago that pros were laughing at the idea of a low deflection stick, now they're everywhere.

Just because you believe something about yourelf doesn't guarantee it to be true, history has shown that. Knowledge, education, and time have a funny way of changing views. Visionaries were often the black sheep at one point.

Times change, notions change, people learn.

People have historically gambled pool because often that was the only way to make money from the game, not to learn or get better. Who do you think started gambling in pool rooms? Guys like us looking to learn or Pros trying to feed their families because tourneys paid squat.

If the guaranteed IPT 100k for 2007 holds true, and the tour takes off, you will see gambling decline bigtime, you will see players devoting themselves to the game in a manner that has not been possible for decades. Pool room action will dry up, you'll see guys drilling shots for hours and some guys you won't see at all because they'll be drilling in their homes on newly purchased tables.

There is also a correlation between pressure and skill which I feel gets often overlooked. The same shot between two players of different skill will offer more pressure for one over the other.

More skill=less pressure, skill=talent, practice and coaching, not gambling.

For those in Reno next month, ask any of the pros there how they prepared for the tourney. They'll tell you they drilled daily for hours and NOT ONE will tell you they played in money matches to improve their game.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Where did anyone ever mention going and losing $500 to a top pro? Can the person who might potentially lose this money even run a rack?

If that's what you think people are talking about when they say gambling to learn, you are missing the point completely.

Yes, instruction facilitates the process of learning pool. No doubt about it.
No one is saying that lessons with someone who has a wealth of knowledge isn't going to get you to the next level.

But when push comes to shove, if you are in your room playing better players for 20 bucks a set, or 5 a game (AFTER you have SOME semblence of a game), or whatever sized bet actually puts the pressure on you (could be 2 dollars for all i know) In the long run, you are going to do better in the pressure situations then you used to. Your game will improve, as will your confidence in the long run, as you begin to understand your capabilities, limitations, and what you are capable of.

If it DOESN'T, then you will realize that you are one of those people who CAN'T hack the pressure, and you will save yourself the agony of trying to compete when it isn't in you to do so.

Pool is about competing, and as such, you need to compete against other players. Learing about it is NOT enough as you will ultimately fail when put under the gun in a pressure situation.
Only by either gambling (and we're not talking about taking out a second loan on the house, and blowing it)with someone slightly better than you, or entering local scratch events, can you experience the pressure you will need to overcome. As you play people better then you, if you are good enough, you will eventually beat them, and move to the next better than you level player to compete against.
Gambling just makes you get over that pressure hump all that much quicker, and you need to be the one who determines what level of gambling is gonna do you the most good.

If after you've come along, and feel you are at a higher level in pool, and want to test yourself, THEN you might think about taking a couple of barrels and aiming them at a higher level player to see how you do.

But to go and dump the money before you even know what your doing is just ridiculous.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
TheOne said:
I'd still take player 1, unless of course the instructor has a gun and threatens to shoot player 2 if he missed. Otherwise he's simply not improving an essential part of player 2's game, pressure resilience.

I've seen quite a few players that would be world champions if they could recreate their practise game in a match. This is what seperates the best from the rest, I would hazzard a guess if you could in some way compare every players "practise game" without matching them up (and of course creating pressure) then the top order of the game would be considerably different than what we see now.
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I think I would too, but I also think it depends upon the player and his other life (sports and otherwise) experiences. Somebody use to performing under pressure in other arenas of life, even something as unrelated as being in the pits as a stockbroker, I think could very well develop all the pressure resilence he'll ever need in any endeavor. Being a batter in baseball, being a surgeon, taking a foul shot in basketball or a penalty kick in soccer, being in combat, being a cop or a firefighter, all these situations are very stressful and pressure packed.
If gambling does help, I think it is because it is the only way you can get better players to be willing to play you. I particularly don't think it helps, if you play within your means, within what you can afford to lose.
I don't gamble, a little poker but never enough that it would hurt me if I lost, so I'm not talking from experience. I'll leave you with that caveat.
 
Well, I've always been sort of against gambling, but recently I have given up. Countless of times players have said to me that my mental game is awful. And they are right. So far I have gambled 4 times for small stakes: lost 3 times, broke even once. Guess what, I broke even against a superior player and lost to players below my speed. Being a favourite to win really put pressure on me.

At the top of my game, I can runout about 30% of open racks. And I was playing this guy who can do it about 50% of the time, sometimes more. 20 euros per set, race to nine. Even up of course. So the match begun. Because I was an underdog, I knew I would play well. I basically gave up on my money and concentrated just on the game. First set he trounced me, but in the second I did the same to him. I played so well in that second set...no choking at all...ran out some tough racks, great safeties which I don't normally produce. I wish I could play like that against guys I'm supposed to beat, lol. Don't know whether it helps or not...it probably does in the long run.
 
There are hundreds of sports out there, millions of competitors, the example of an Aggassi hustling ball boys puts it in the lowest possible percentile.

And don't think that any of these guys ever thought they were learning and improving because they were gambling.

Only in the Pool world will you ever see people defending gambling as constructive.

Gambling is addictive, plain and simple, the nature of it causes people to do very stupid things. Gambling addiction is a disease that many suffer from, to promote it is absurd.

Young people who gamble for the smallest amounts often don't have the maturity to understand the implications of betting. Young pool players need not worry about such things, rather concentrate on practicing, drilling, and local tourneys.
 
smashmouth said:
...NOT ONE will tell you they played in money matches to improve their game...
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You are all about the blanket statements, aren't you? YOu know such b/w situations only make you wrong, yes?

I tell you: I bet there are more IPTers that would say they gambled while learning than those who would say they didn't.

It has been said multiple times in this thread- it's got to matter to make one apply him/ herself. Some cash, a bullet hole, 500 push-ups...that's why they make almond-joy and mounds, babee!
 
What it does...

smashmouth said:
One last thing, I know this may sound arrogant, but I respectfully put forward that those who believe gambling has helped their game are fooling themselves.

Before you crucify me, remember that it wan't too long ago that
most of the pool playing pros out there didn't even believe that cue ball spin could be imparted to an object ball.

And it was only a few years ago that pros were laughing at the idea of a low deflection stick, now they're everywhere.

Just because you believe something about yourelf doesn't guarantee it to be true, history has shown that. Knowledge, education, and time have a funny way of changing views. Visionaries were often the black sheep at one point.

Times change, notions change, people learn.

People have historically gambled pool because often that was the only way to make money from the game, not to learn or get better. Who do you think started gambling in pool rooms? Guys like us looking to learn or Pros trying to feed their families because tourneys paid squat.

If the guaranteed IPT 100k for 2007 holds true, and the tour takes off, you will see gambling decline bigtime, you will see players devoting themselves to the game in a manner that has not been possible for decades. Pool room action will dry up, you'll see guys drilling shots for hours and some guys you won't see at all because they'll be drilling in their homes on newly purchased tables.

There is also a correlation between pressure and skill which I feel gets often overlooked. The same shot between two players of different skill will offer more pressure for one over the other.

More skill=less pressure, skill=talent, practice and coaching, not gambling.

For those in Reno next month, ask any of the pros there how they prepared for the tourney. They'll tell you they drilled daily for hours and NOT ONE will tell you they played in money matches to improve their game.
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Is to season you as a player, and improves your motivation and tests your internal fortitude. There are many excellent players today that are tournament players, and they would never gamble with an excellent money player. Although similiar, the pressure felt from both are different. Back in the old days (yes, I am old school), there weren't any tournaments where most people lived, or only the pros played in them, no amateur tournaments to speak of. Playing for money was the way to make your mark in the Pool World (and still works today). I don't think a lot of tournament players would like to match up with Jose Parica for the cash.
How do you think Buddy Hall got started? Or Johnny Archer? The Europeans are a little purer about the sport, partly because a basic lack of gambling over in Europe on Pool, and the way they are recognized in the sport (European type championships).

Their is an unspoken basic premise in Pool that has existed for decades,
take 2 evenly matched players, one a tournament winner, one a money player, and the money player will come away with the cash 9 out 10 times, assuming they are playing 5 figure Pool a set. Maybe, with the IPT and large payouts that might change somewhat, but in the past, that has always been known.

Let me tell you the first $1,000 set I shot, and overran shape from the 8 to get on the 9, tied hill-to-hill, with the cue ball on the end rail, with the
9 off center to the foot spot, about a 40 degree cut, that is when I found out what I was made of. I was shaking like a leaf, but made the shot.
 
smashmouth said:
The whole "pressure" argument is a joke. Go ask Michael Jordan or Joe Montana or an Olympic track star how they learned to deal with pressure.
Practice, practice, practice, good coaching, and more practice.

Here's a very good analogy, if given the chance, ask any of the world's
top Snooker and 3 Cushion players if they spent much time gambling while learning the game.
They simply don't do it.
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I find these very naive statements. In the same way that the poker shouldn't be discussed because it is based on wagering, these 2 topics should be dismissed because first, in Pro Basketball, or Pro football, you are dealing with a class of athletics where at the pro level, even the BENCHWARMER is getting paid way more than EVERY poolplayer, and that's before the season even starts. The money is in the bank already.

Your not talking about M.J shooting a free throw and if he chunks it, he goes home BROKE.
Same thing with football. If Joe Montana blows an easy pass, and as a result, he goes bust because of it, THEN, just maybe you'd have a situation resembling what most pool players go through when it comes to their income and tournaments.

If they DON'T perform, they don't get paid. PERIOD.

AS for Snooker, that's also a moot comparison because the snooker players have way more sponsorship opportunities as a whole, and generally, the top shelf snooker players are rich in comparison to pool players.

If a pool player signed a deal that got them millions of dollars before they even picked up a cue for the tour that year, then the pressure wouldn't come close to what it is like when you go play at a pro event, and if you miss a particular shot and lose the match, you go home broke.
 
smashmouth said:
There are hundreds of sports out there, millions of competitors, the example of an Aggassi hustling ball boys puts it in the lowest possible percentile.

And don't think that any of these guys ever thought they were learning and improving because they were gambling.

Only in the Pool world will you ever see people defending gambling as constructive.

Gambling is addictive, plain and simple, the nature of it causes people to do very stupid things. Gambling addiction is a disease that many suffer from, to promote it is absurd.

Young people who gamble for the smallest amounts often don't have the maturity to understand the implications of betting. Young pool players need not worry about such things, rather concentrate on practicing, drilling, and local tourneys.
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You have stated many "facts" that are simply not true and you are falling to grasp the fact that pressure resilliance is an important part of cuesport which can not be compared to athletic sports. If you could play a final of a tournament every day then yes you wouldn't need to gamble to reproduce this. But this is unlikely for most players, but tournament play is gambling, you pay your stake and try to multiply it.

Snooker players do gamble, my home town has had many professional snooker players and they all gamble. Efren would absoloutley have gambled every day before the IPT. In fact I know several players that flew to Manila before the recent IPT event to prepare by gambling, needless to say all the filipinos where playing sets for cash too.

You seem to have had a problem with gambling before, can you share your gambling experiences here so we can understand your position better?
 
I totally agree with Jude's remarks on "Risk" and TheOne's remarks on "Practice"

IMO, one would need devide the time and effort into 70% practice, 20% communication and 10% risk to advance his/her game; and the person needs disciplines in keeping that order

Gambling falls into the 10% part. People look at that part more because of the green.

Around the time of Chelsea Billiard when Ginky was the center of action scene, very few has ever seen him often practicing for hours in the basement.

I for one believe those practices created his game. Gambling took very small part, and it's not an efficient form of practice.
 
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smashmouth said:
Ask yourself this, if gambling is so helpfull, then why is not prevelant
in other forms of sport?

Again, only pool players seem to have this mentality. Snooker and 3
cushion pros as a general rule do not gamble (except Quinten Hann, lol), they practice.

Don't believe me, ask any of em at Sang Lee's NYC room or speak to any
of the snooker guys if you're passing through for the Reno tourney.
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Nope, your wrong. It definately helps...

Wanna play something cheap? Im still learning...:p
 
Again, gambling pool while learning and learning from gambling are two different things.

I have discussed this matter with many top pros including those in the realm of snooker and 3 cushion.

I have paid pro pool players for their advice, to literally sit down and give me their opinions.

Pool pros want people to believe that gambling is good. They have many secrets which they choose not to discuss in public forums.

Alot of you guys are speaking from opinion only, yours.

I speak from the opinions of other Pros, world champions no less, but don't take my word for it, ask em.

As a matter of fact, I will name names of people who have personally told me that gambling to learn is a farce.

Thornburn, Strickland, Archer, Duel, Steve Davis, Stephen Henry, Jimmy White, Varner to name but a few. The only person I recall saying otherwise was Rempe and I think he was trying to hustle me.

These players are all very accessible, ask them.
 
Snapshot9 said:
Let me tell you the first $1,000 set I shot, and overran shape from the 8 to get on the 9, tied hill-to-hill, with the cue ball on the end rail, with the
9 off center to the foot spot, about a 40 degree cut, that is when I found out what I was made of. I was shaking like a leaf, but made the shot.
Click to expand...

If you really were shaking like a leaf, you could have easily missed the shot...and been out $1000.

How would you have felt if you would have missed and had to pay out $1000?
 
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