Gambling to Be the Best
- Thread starter Kerry Impson
- Start date
It seems that in pool, one must play for money and win to be considered a "player". Most of us have heard the stories or actually known those people that can play lights out pool if no money is involved or the wager is very small. Raise the bet or play for some money, and their game goes to pot which makes them a non-"player'.
Personally, I think the best way to deal with this when practicing is to pretend that there is a lot of money on the critical shots. Also, even if you do play for small amounts of money, you should play every shot like it is worth $1,000. I don't like to gamble because I feel pretty much the same way Purdy does. I have gambled a little in the past and didn't like it.
Several things bother me about gambling:
1. If you're winning, there is an uspoken rule that you have to keep playing until your opponent quits. This is stupid if you ask me.
2. If you beat someone out of some money, they will hound you to play again with a spot that favors them and you are expected to give it to them. STUPID!
3. If someone beats you out of some money, you never hear the end of it.
4. If you usually win the cash, you get called a dirty hustler.
5. If you beat Keith, you get called, "Ya lucky prick!" "Color of Money" Sorry Keith, I just couldn't help it. LOL Of courst that don't happen very often.
Personally, I think the best way to deal with this when practicing is to pretend that there is a lot of money on the critical shots. Also, even if you do play for small amounts of money, you should play every shot like it is worth $1,000. I don't like to gamble because I feel pretty much the same way Purdy does. I have gambled a little in the past and didn't like it.
Several things bother me about gambling:
1. If you're winning, there is an uspoken rule that you have to keep playing until your opponent quits. This is stupid if you ask me.
2. If you beat someone out of some money, they will hound you to play again with a spot that favors them and you are expected to give it to them. STUPID!
3. If someone beats you out of some money, you never hear the end of it.
4. If you usually win the cash, you get called a dirty hustler.
5. If you beat Keith, you get called, "Ya lucky prick!" "Color of Money" Sorry Keith, I just couldn't help it. LOL Of courst that don't happen very often.
Donald A. Purdy said:
I'm trying to differentiate between betting on luck and betting on skill. There is a difference between playing blackjack or roulette and playing pool where you have the ability to control the outcome. Pool tournaments are also "gambling". You pay an entry fee, and if you win the tournament, you make alot more money than your entry. If you lose, you lost your entry fee.
5aheadforpinks said:
Well I don't gamble much at all, but can most certainly remember specific loss situations. Perhaps it is a way of saying to yourself "I'm serious here", but there are other ways. For example, set specific goals. Make them difficult but attainable, then work towards them. If your personality is 'goal oriented' then this will be sufficient motivation to remember those losing shots and to discover/work ways around/through these difficulties. Goals and gambling are two ways of measuring yourself against a standard, imo. Aim high (or bet high, if that's your thing) !
Dave
I did gamble when I was starting out, because everyone at the pool room played for table time, or a dollar a game, or pill partners.....it wasn't until I started traveling out of state for pool tournaments that I was exposed to higher stakes, and I quickly found that I didn't like that kind of gambling. For me, it was too much pressure! I hated to lose, I hated to lose my money, and I ESPECIALLY hated to lose someone else's money! Sure, winning was nice, but I agree with Rickw's assessment about gambling in general. (Incidentally, I definitely see a distinction between buying a lottery ticket and playing pool for table time.)drivermaker said:
drivermaker said:Kerry... in golf, there was a lot of gambling going on for up and coming players to hone their skills and nerves if you go beyond a decade ago. Many a great PGA tour player traveled around to different courses looking for a big money game just like pool roadies. It was the ONLY way to get better. For many, it didn't make them great tournament players though, just great money players. Believe it or not the games and the hustles were identical in many ways to what goes on in the pool room. You have guys dumping on the course, laying down for a bigger bet the next day, screwing over your backer (yes it goes on there also).
But now, there are so many things available in golf starting with junior camps, junior tournaments, HS, College, mini-tours out of the ying yang, and right on down the line. Some gambling still goes on within the ranks of each of those areas from HS on up, but it's no longer the training ground.
BTW..when you were learning the game and coming up, didn't you gamble?
Huh...huh...tell uncle Driver the truth now.
Excellent post Mr. DM ! It is very interesting that golf has evolved into a multi-level development sport, with gambling 'no longer the training ground'. The sport is better for it, imo (notwithstanding those who believe that the college golf programs turn out automatons). It will be much more difficult for pool to evolve along those lines, the gambling has become too entrenched in pool culture. Damn shame in my opinion.
Dave
LastTwo said:
It is called semantics. If a person doesnt gamble it is gambling and it is BAD if the person gambles it is a game of skill and it is GOOD. LOL. I mentioned once that I didn't practice much but got into a lot of action and tournaments, one poster told me I was wrong because action and tournaments are the best kind of practice therefore I was always practicing.
I never argued the point because obviously the person already had their mind made up and nothing I was going to say would change it. The mind has a built in thing for most people that tells them "I am always right" oh and "you are always wrong".
If anyone thinks this post is wrong in any way read the above line "you are right". LOL
Wayne
Wayne
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Bible mentions "gambling" or "gamble" specifically. A common interpretation by some groups is that gambling is a sin, but that's all it is, an interpretation. No where does the Bible list gambling as a sin. If I remember correctly, there are plenty of times "casting lots" is mentioned in the Bible. "Casting lots" was used to divvy up things such as land and livestock. The only time I can think of "casting lots" being portrayed negatively was when the Romans "cast lots" for pieces of Jesus's robe after the Crucifixion.
I personally don't believe there's anything wrong with gambling, just as I don't think there's anything wrong with drinking. The Bible doesn't say that alcohol is evil, or drinking it is a sin, only that drinking to excess is sinful. I think the same line of thinking would apply to gambling - it is only when it is done excessively (which is totally subjective) that it becomes sinful.
Anyway, I believe gambling and tournaments are two different kinds of pressure. Gambling, you can get as many chances as you have barrels. As mentioned before, you usually only have two barrels in tournament play. I think being exposed to either type of pressure helps deal with ANY kind of pressure. I think gambling can help tournament play, and tournament play can help the gambling game. Whether or not you HAVE to gamble to be the best is the question, and looking at the past winners of the US Open and the WPC, I'd have to say, "Maybe." I can't think of a past champion of either tournament who didn't gamble, but that's probably indicative of the economic hardship of being a professional pool player.
-djb <-- doesn't drink, will gamble, has actually read the Bible
I personally don't believe there's anything wrong with gambling, just as I don't think there's anything wrong with drinking. The Bible doesn't say that alcohol is evil, or drinking it is a sin, only that drinking to excess is sinful. I think the same line of thinking would apply to gambling - it is only when it is done excessively (which is totally subjective) that it becomes sinful.
Anyway, I believe gambling and tournaments are two different kinds of pressure. Gambling, you can get as many chances as you have barrels. As mentioned before, you usually only have two barrels in tournament play. I think being exposed to either type of pressure helps deal with ANY kind of pressure. I think gambling can help tournament play, and tournament play can help the gambling game. Whether or not you HAVE to gamble to be the best is the question, and looking at the past winners of the US Open and the WPC, I'd have to say, "Maybe." I can't think of a past champion of either tournament who didn't gamble, but that's probably indicative of the economic hardship of being a professional pool player.
-djb <-- doesn't drink, will gamble, has actually read the Bible
Kerry Impson said:
couple those things with the fact that if you don't win.........you don't eat.........and you'll come out with one hell of a poolplayer.
IMO it is these things that push a person's ability up and over that hump between a good player and a great player.
you leave yourself no choice but to be the best you can.
i do think you can be a good player without gambling, but i think gambling will get you there much much quicker.
if anyone is having a "focus" problem at the table..........put your rent money up, and see if you're still having trouble focusing and taking the shot seriously. see how it feels when you miss a case ball, or a shot that if you had made you would have easily gotten out..........
once you start gambling like that two things will happen:
1: you'll decide that pool isn't for you, that its just going to be a hobby, and you're going to get a day job (basically, you quit)
2: you're going to work your ass off, to where this doesn't happen, and you're going to turn into a player.
thanks
VAP
drivermaker
Banned
Danny Harriman said:
It would be a crying shame if you DIDN'T gamble...what a waste of looks and talent. What I mean by looks is, the first time I ever saw you I said to myself this guy has that all-American clean cut nice boy look that could allow him to get away with murder. With no TV time or playing in tournaments to get your face known along with using a few aliases, dressed in a business shirt as you take a necktie off to play, I could see you barnstorming the country like some of the old timers and cleaning up if you had advance information of gamblers and knew what rooms to hit along the way. You've probably already figured this out for yourself, but if I were you I'd say "screw tournaments" (before they screw you) and play for the cash one on one. Or, get a real job in sales as a charmer that most pool player hustlers have the talent for to begin with. Hell, Irving Crane made a great living being a Cadillac salesman.
DoomCue said:
David,
As a Christian, and as a well educated student of God's Word, I would be more than happy to explain my views on this in private to give you a clearer explanation to what is a sin and what is not. If you look back to Adam & Eve, they gambled and lost. Ever since then, some of us still don't get it.
Gambling falls into several different categories of sin. Any time I am placing my faith and trust in anything other than God, I am placing something before God. If I have faith that God will provide for all of my needs, I won't have to go out and gamble for my dinner. There are many Biblical lessons that clearly show the downfall of many who placed their faith in their own abilities rather than placing their faith in God. Our own arrogance tells us that we can justify sin or ignore the word of God, much like the Pharises justified not listening to Jesus.
As a Christian, I have to remember the importance of obedience in relation to spiritual discernment. When I fail to obey God, I lose my ability to discern. The conscience becomes seared and the discernment becomes cloudy. An unbleiever cannot have spiritual discernment because he is not living in relationship with the Holy Spirit who gives discernment. The obedience will break strongholds (such as arrogance, disobedience, justification) but only will work through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 6:16 states that we as Christians will face "all the fiery darts of the wicked one." The temptation to gamble is a fiery dart for me, and I face it every single time I walk into a pool hall. The wicked one will tempt me (just like you), by attacking my thoughts, my impulses, and my impressions of those around me. Any thought or impulse that entices a person to fall victim to "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" is a fiery dart. This is covered in 1John 2:16-17. I can give you hundreds of examples in the Bible where people have given in to sin by falling to temptation, greed, covetousness, all of which are characteristics of gambling.
Last edited:
drivermaker
Banned
DaveK said:
I don't know that it'll EVER evolve. What parent is going to want to send their kids away for a "pool" camp during the summer like in golf, baseball, or tennis? What parent is going to want to dress their kids up like any particular pro pool player as kids will in high fashion emulating Venus Williams on or off the court, or Tiger Woods in golf? (who might that role model be) What parent wants to see their kid struggling to make money for the rest of their life in a sport that pays zilch for tournament earnings or endorsements? What parent wants to compare notes with the "Joneses next door" regarding the perceived status level of pool compared to other sports and how their kids are developing?
That's where today's future athletes are all being developed. In classes, camps, groups, organized tournaments and games all across the country. I don't know what is happening in foreign countries, it might take off there but I don't see it happening in the US.
Sure, you can learn to be a decent pool player without gambling. But you would also need to be involved in a ton of tournaments to get your experience, seasoning, and ability to play under pressure. That cost's money.
But if you don't have ongoing tournaments and gambling, you WON'T become a top level player and be able to hang with those that have had the background in one or the other or both. It just ain't gonna happen. You'll get to a certain level, and that's it.
TATE said:
He was also during the last 2 matches at the US Open. Me and SPetty and Barbara and Rich R. were sitting about 3 feet from his chair. But when he got down on the shot he was a steady as a rock.
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
I can't make any $ "On-Line" so lets just wait for the DCC.
The only way I make $ "On-Line" is by playing Gin.
We can't play until the DCC comes up so lets just save the woofing until then.
I have always done my best woofing "In-Person"!
TY & GL
wayne said:
The only way I make $ "On-Line" is by playing Gin.
We can't play until the DCC comes up so lets just save the woofing until then.
I have always done my best woofing "In-Person"!
TY & GL
VAP,
You said, "couple those things with the fact that if you don't win.........you don't eat.........and you'll come out with one hell of a poolplayer."
Or you'll come out with a hustler who finds a way to win even if it's not necessarily with their pool talent. To me, this is one of the biggest problems. When you're talking survival, you're going to do whatever it takes to make it and that could include using tactics that lead to some pretty undesirable activities. To me, this is the essence of the problem with gambling.
You said, "couple those things with the fact that if you don't win.........you don't eat.........and you'll come out with one hell of a poolplayer."
Or you'll come out with a hustler who finds a way to win even if it's not necessarily with their pool talent. To me, this is one of the biggest problems. When you're talking survival, you're going to do whatever it takes to make it and that could include using tactics that lead to some pretty undesirable activities. To me, this is the essence of the problem with gambling.
BlackJack,Blackjack said:
I respect your opinion as a player, and as a person. I must disagree, though, that temptation, greed, and covetousness are all characteristics of gambling. And I'll bet your opinion was different before you were "born again". I feel that the differences in opinion appear because you are speaking to us as a Christian now instead of as a player. All Christians have the same opinion. Their tunnel vision values only allow them to see that one is either going to heaven or hell, and you all see everything as holy or sinful with no gray area. I think that devout Christians are unable to see or appreciate the opinions of less religious people because of these beliefs, while non-Christians (or not so devout Christians) can see both sides of the coin. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that. It's what your religion asks you to believe.
I just feel that once a person is saved, that they are no longer objecive about the subject. Christians feel that if one person has lost their rent money, or baby's diaper money gambling, that it makes it sinful and bad on all counts. They feel that the atmosphere of pool is bad. They associate gambling with the establishments where it is usually played, where there is alcohol served and the opportunity for pre-marital sex. These and other factors cause biased opinion from Christians on the subject.
If a person enjoys going to a movie and going out to eat afterwards, and they spend $50, no one says anything about it. If I enjoy playing $5 nine ball, and spend $50, I see no difference. We are both doing something that we enjoy. I do agree that gluttony of anything is a sin. Many people gamble, though, without the perils that Christains feel come with the territory.
I am not belittling or talking down Christianity. Conversely, I am just stating that if your opinion differs from not so ardent Christians, that neither of us is a bad person because of this. The Christian way is not the only way to see things intelligently, even though most Christians seem to have little consideration for any opinion other than their own.
Many good people gamble. And not to excess. It is just a way to enjoy pool, test their skill against others, and hopefully make a couple of bucks in the process.
Mike
Blackjack said:
BlackJack,
I do respect your opinion.
But I can't find a difference between gambling in pool, and playing tournaments. (except of course the amount of money and the odds)
Surely you don't find tournaments to be sinful.
I can see an addiction to gambling arousing a sinful nature in someone.
It sounds to me that you once had an addiction, and that you overcame that addiction through patience and trust in God.
I do think the lifestyle which you allowed yourself to be sucked into became your centermost focus.
You have done a great thing by shaking that monkey off your back and replacing it with clean living.
But, I do not see the harm in playing for affordable stakes.
A little bit about Shorty...
First of all, I am the worst gambler on this planet...I bet a nickle and I can't play. You stick me in a tournament, and I play some of my best pool.
Just this past weekend I shot in a pretty strong field of 9 ball players, and won my first match against a kid that plays better than me. Why? Cause I was more focused and making some good runs. I then lost my next two matches, due to mostly a lack of sleep and not having played much nine ball over the last few years.
But anyway, I am writing this to explain sort of my view of the whole thing about gambling. I was an alcoholic, or I should say I had a few problems that were in direct link to me drinking alcohol on occasion. I was not a daily drinker nor was I getting sloshed every weekend. About every two or three months I would get drunk, black out type of drunk, and try to drink away my problems. They were somehow always still there. An incident occured between my new wife and myself that I do not even remember...AT ALL. The next day I got involved with AA and went to meetings daily for about 4 months. I got "sober" as they say. When my "sponsor" explained to me that I was heading for a divorce if I did not get my wife to come as well to Al-Anon, I quit going. Period. It was stupid. I can't control her. I can't make her find religion. She has to find it on her own. And why should I have to go to a meeting everyday when everyone else doesn't have to? No, AA to me was turning into a cult experience, and I wanted no part of it. I have been "sober" now over three months without the help of AA, and I am doing just fine. Heck, I am doing better cause now I have time to spend with my family and kids and not stuck in a meeting every night. Quitting drinking was the answer for me, my health is ten times better and my stomach problems have really improved as I believe I have an ulcer. AA was not the answer, it only complicated an already hectic life schedule of being a step-dad to a 15 year old girl and a 5 year old little boy, along with being a husband to a wonderful and understanding wife. This is where God has taken me in life, and I would not trade it for anything. He has not made me much of a gambler, but I figure being a handicapped pool player and getting as much out of life as I have, I have already won the biggest stake I could ever win...why do I ever need to gamble again?
Thanks,
Shorty
First of all, I am the worst gambler on this planet...I bet a nickle and I can't play. You stick me in a tournament, and I play some of my best pool.
Just this past weekend I shot in a pretty strong field of 9 ball players, and won my first match against a kid that plays better than me. Why? Cause I was more focused and making some good runs. I then lost my next two matches, due to mostly a lack of sleep and not having played much nine ball over the last few years.
But anyway, I am writing this to explain sort of my view of the whole thing about gambling. I was an alcoholic, or I should say I had a few problems that were in direct link to me drinking alcohol on occasion. I was not a daily drinker nor was I getting sloshed every weekend. About every two or three months I would get drunk, black out type of drunk, and try to drink away my problems. They were somehow always still there. An incident occured between my new wife and myself that I do not even remember...AT ALL. The next day I got involved with AA and went to meetings daily for about 4 months. I got "sober" as they say. When my "sponsor" explained to me that I was heading for a divorce if I did not get my wife to come as well to Al-Anon, I quit going. Period. It was stupid. I can't control her. I can't make her find religion. She has to find it on her own. And why should I have to go to a meeting everyday when everyone else doesn't have to? No, AA to me was turning into a cult experience, and I wanted no part of it. I have been "sober" now over three months without the help of AA, and I am doing just fine. Heck, I am doing better cause now I have time to spend with my family and kids and not stuck in a meeting every night. Quitting drinking was the answer for me, my health is ten times better and my stomach problems have really improved as I believe I have an ulcer. AA was not the answer, it only complicated an already hectic life schedule of being a step-dad to a 15 year old girl and a 5 year old little boy, along with being a husband to a wonderful and understanding wife. This is where God has taken me in life, and I would not trade it for anything. He has not made me much of a gambler, but I figure being a handicapped pool player and getting as much out of life as I have, I have already won the biggest stake I could ever win...why do I ever need to gamble again?
Thanks,
Shorty
BazookaJoe said:
I don't believe I had an addiction to gambling. I never lost much. I did make my living as a road warrior. When I did so, I was very dishonest and my actions in doing so meet the criteria set down to qualify as "sin". Gambling was not the only thing on my agenda. My gambling profits also supported other bad habits. I make no secret of that. What I wrote in my earlier post is straight from the Bible, not from The Book of Blackjack. The misconception is that I "look down upon those that do", which isn't true at all. I believe that I (of all people) have written some of the most in-depth articles on the subject of gambling and pool. Being an expert and having lived the life, I have the experience to speak about the subject. Having educated myself while in my walk with Christ also qualifies me to give an opinion from that viewpoint as well. I also have a long list of dead friends that were never able to conquer their demons, and I consider myself fortunate enough just to be sitting here and able to write this to you.
I did not stop gambling when I became a Christian. I actually stopped gambling a few years prior to that. I was never "sucked into the lifestyle"... I was a willing participant in that lifestyle from start to finish. I was off drugs and alcohol for almost 15 years prior to being born again.
The harm in playing for affordable stakes... it all goes back to justification... and greed... which has everything to do with it... I never got into any money game without having to entice another player into it in one way or another.
If interested, here is my short list on how it is covered in different areas of the bible: I collected some of this from several Christian sites - so don't dispute it with me)
Gambling conflicts with the Bible in at least six major areas: It violates the principles of:
1) Earning a living through righteous means (Ephesians 4:28),
2) Loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37-39; 7:12),
3) Shunning the appearance of evil (Romans 12:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:22),
4) Christian stewardship (1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 9:6-7),
5) Showing a Christ-like example (Romans 12:17),
6) God's plan for the home (Ephesians 5:23-31; 6:1-4).
(I didn't write that, it comes straight from the Bible - God's Words, not mine)
Gambling is a greedy desire to get something for nothing at the expense of the loser. It is not an innocent past time nor is it a fund raiser. It is covetousness. Colossians 3:5 says covetousness is idolatry; and, idolatry and sin. Always remember that the bible does not say that "Money is the root of all evil", its says that "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil".