Game plan

yankee817299

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello to everyone, and what a world of information. This site is greatly apprerciated by many.

Quick question. After the break shot, how does one learn which order to take the remaining balls left on the table? What type of practice drills could possibly teach this? Also, how far ahead do you look? 3 shots, 5 shots, a run out??? What is it that I should be looking for on the table???
 
Assuming you meant 8-ball, I'd most of start by looking at the table and asking myself some questions:

1) Which pockets does the black have a clear path to right now?
2) Which balls block it's path and are they easily potted or nudged out?
3) Which balls are tied up? If it's only one set, I will often choose the other suit.
4) Where the tough shots and can I get to them right away?

When I'm playing I have a rough game plan for the table, but in 8-ball, with so many obstacles you need to be flexible. So I plan 3 shots ahead but keep breakout shots and transition balls in mind and try not to pot them until it is time.

Another standard practice is to clear one end of the table, then using a transition ball, if one is available, move to the end where the 8 is. If there's no transition ball, then I keep an angle on my last shot to move the CB back up the table.



.
 
First off welcome to AZB. Your right this is a great place and a true wealth of information. I can legitimately say that visiting here and reading some posts and watching linked videos from here has made me a better player in the short time I've been around.

For me I first look at the rack to see which balls are more spread out. If more Bigs are 'free' than Littles I take them. As for looking ahead I'm still at a pretty low speed so I only look 1 ball ahead. I try to pocket the ball I'm shooting and leaving myself with shape on the next ball I intend on pocketing.

I suppose that by taking this strategy I'm setting myself up for success because ultimately I'm moving from ball to ball until the end. Now I'm sure there are better more sophisticated ways of looking ahead I'm just not there yet.
 
Hello to everyone, and what a world of information. This site is greatly apprerciated by many.

Quick question. After the break shot, how does one learn which order to take the remaining balls left on the table? What type of practice drills could possibly teach this? Also, how far ahead do you look? 3 shots, 5 shots, a run out??? What is it that I should be looking for on the table???

Simply... you should be looking for things that will keep you from running out. I would start there. If there are any of those things then you need to look forward far enough to get to that point and decide how you will deal with that.

If there is nothing the fall under that , then I would look for any difficult shots , like balls with few to no pocket options or that will require very precise position. Then that will be your next point of attention and plan your run to that point accordingly.

If the table is very open then plan a run out that allows for the most direct , natural path of the CB around the table to the money ball.

Then 'simply'... ;) don't miss.

:)
 
I was speaking of 8-ball. I would consider myself an intermediate player whose game has came to a standstill. I am trying to take my game to the next level and have been reading through the forum here.

When I play I look 3 to 4 balls ahead keeping in mind any clusters that need to be re-arranged. I like the idea of clearing half the table then moving to the other end. I read on this forum somewhere (I think the instruction area) that shot routine is a big part of the game, which makes sense.
 
The next logical step then is to determine what's stopping you.

Are you playing bad patterns? Bad Shape? Missing shots? Or What?

You have to know what needs fixing in order to fix it. Setup a camera and play a few racks , go back and watch. You might be surprised to see what a different perspective shows. ;)
 
I read on this forum somewhere (I think the instruction area) that shot routine is a big part of the game, which makes sense.

A Pre-Shot Routine (PSR) is an essential part of the game. Without it you'll be inconsistent and likely crack under pressure, missing the easiest of shots and blowing position when it counts.

There are numerous threads on the forum about it. Mike Page's video provides the reasons why it works and part 2 gives the layout of a good PSR.

If you're ready for the honest truth, upload a video of you playing a rack or two on YouTube and post a link in the, "Ask The Instructor" forum. There are some great guys and gals around that will give you some tips on what to work on.
 
Not quite sure what an "intermediate" player is, but if you want to progress to "advanced," your goal should be to never leave your opponent an open table.

Don't start running out until you have a plan to run the whole rack. If you can't run out, run to a safety where you can open up your balls and/or make your opponent's more difficult.

The greatest challenge for most players in 8-ball (myself included) is clearing most of your balls and failing to get out. That's a death sentence.
 
I'm assuming you're talking about 8 ball. For me I look to make sure every ball has a pocket. If every ball has a pocket I look for my hardest shot and look for the easiest way to get shape on it. If there are clusters I look to see if I can reliably get shape off of whatever break out I might attempt. If the run isn't there I look for the earliest/most effective safety I can find and try to arrange the balls to my advantage.
 
There are some great books like the 8 Ball Bible.
Read mohr's excellent 8 ball layout posts, he's made almost 20 of them in the past few weeks,
and many of the comments in there show a very advanced way of looking at a tricky rack of 8 ball.
This is one way to dissect each 8 ball rack. I didn't intend for it to be this long,
but I think it's gonna help you. I was in the same boat once.

• Scan the table. Does either group have zero problems, and is 100% runnable
(no blocked pockets, no tricky position required, every ball goes into its nearest
sensible pocket)? That's the group you want.

If both groups are that way (pretty rare) then take the group that 'controls' the 8,
meaning blocks it from going into pockets. If neither group controls the 8, just go with the easiest opening shot.

• If both groups have problems, you pick out balls that solve those problems... balls that easily break clusters,
balls that allow you to play shape into a small window, etc. After doing this, you usually will have a sense that
one group has more problems with no obvious solution. That group's much less runnable than the other.

Notice I keep mentioning 'runnable', at the highest levels, you are trying relentlessly to run out.
Your gameplan will almost never be "I'll sink these 4 balls, then play safe off this other ball".
If you absolutely can't run out but like one group better, make a single ball in that group and then do your safe.
Try to reposition a ball into an area that solves one of your problems, while leaving the opponent nothing.

If you try to run the rack and fail halfway through, it makes things 100x easier on the opponent to win.
He doesn't even have to run out, just run a few and then hook you on your remaining balls.
But if he's any good he will probably run out because you removed half the traffic from the table.*

• If you're going to take a gamble in a rack, such as an unnatural forced breakout or difficult shot,
do it as early in the possible in the rack. That way if you miss, the table is as tough as possible to run for him.*
Also whenever you go into a cluster, try to imagine what ball you can realistically shoot afterwards if successful.
This is called the 'insurance ball' in straight pool. Do NOT count on it being the ball you just broke out!
Just assume that the broken out ball will NOT work out and have an insurance ball picked out ahead of time.
If no insurance ball seems to exist, you may have already shot it off the table... doh.
In that case, your best bet is usually to go into a breakout softly and hit your ball before the opponent's ball.
You don't need to blast breakouts apart, you only need to move them a few inches. And if you go into
them softly, the outcome is more predictable. If you're forced to shoot the broken out ball,
it will be a lot easier from just a few inches away.

*Note your strategy in league pool might be a little different, in games where each ball is worth a point.
Then you usually want to cash in as many points as you can.


• In terms of patterns, going from the top down (clear one half, then the other) is not bad, but it really
applies mostly to wide open tables. If you have problems to solve, solve them early.
Even if you have a gameplan for them, do not take balls off the table and say "and on my fourth shot,
I'll go ahead and break that cluster"... break it on your first or second shot if it all possible.
Don't save it til the end. Once all the balls are opened, then you can pretty much roll your own.
Get rid of stragglers at the top of the table, then move on to the bottom.

• Pick out a key ball to get on the 8 ball. The kind of ball where, if you did a simple stop shot on it,
you'd have a pretty good shot on the 8. But don't count on getting a simple stop shot into the side pocket,
unless the ball is pretty close to the side. Getting straight in on a ball that's like 18" from the side is often
difficult and something can go wrong. Then you're forced to move the cue ball all around the table to recover.
A corner pocket shot where the object ball is fairly close to the rail is better.

• There are sort of three phases to the rack...
1. Getting control of the table
2. Solving problems
3. Running out.

Getting control: Your very first shot is crucial, especially if it's after the break.
You almost never want to shoot a missable ball here.
If I see that solids has 2 problems and stripes has only one, but all the stripes are tough shots
that I'm like 40% to make... then I'll just take solids. On the other hand if stripes
have a 75% shot, and the solid problems are hard to solve, I may gamble on that missable stripe.

I can't really give an exact formula for this but as a rule of thumb, don't shoot a shot you can miss.

Sometimes your first shot is missable for either group. Then you might as well gamble on the better group.
And occasionally your first shot is so awkward all you can do is cinch it, and then your next shot is tough too.
When that happens, just remember, you never want to run half the balls and then miss.
Is it worth it to take a flyer at a tough ball, ESPECIALLY if you 'earmarked' that ball to solve a problem?

Solving problems: Again just do this as early as you can. Some guys get locked in an "insurance blocker"
mindset where they refuse to touch a ball blocking one of the opponent's balls or tied up with one of his balls.
That's amateur thinking. It's fine to save a blocker if it's 100% makeable for you, but ruins one of his balls.
But most of the time it's not that simple, and both balls are unmakeable (or his ball is more makeable
than you thought... lots of ways to deal with blockers... bank it in, make it follow in one of his hangers,
play position on the 'short side' of the ball, etc.). Play to run the rack, don't play to sink half your balls
and then get mired down in a safety battle. When two balls are tied up so that neither one goes,
the guy with the advantage is the guy with more balls on the table. He can more easily play a safe
that results in ball in hand, and he has more 'ammo' for breaking up the cluster.

Running out: By the time you shoot any difficult opening shots, and then attack your problems,
and then reserve a single ball to get on the 8... you may only have like 3 left.
In that case the pattern will be pretty obvious.
Don't shoot a ball you can miss just for the sake of a "prettier pattern"!
Don't "save the easy ones for later"! Use them to get shape on the hard ones.

OK, to sum up, some common mistakes I see (and made) at the intermediate level:

- Selling out when the opponent has few balls left, or is on the 8.
When the opponent only has one or two balls left, you should either run out,
or immediately look for a really nasty safety that virtually guarantees ball in hand.
He should never see those balls again.

If you're trying to run out and get a little 'funny' and all shots look missable, you ALWAYS ALWAYS
play a two-way, meaning leaving him no shot on his final balls (or the 8).

Look for a shot where the natural leave gives him at MOST a tough bank shot if you miss.
Never take shot where missing = you 100% lose. Not if you can help it.

And if you only need to hide from one or two balls, it's ok to play safe halfway through the run.
I know, that sort of contradicts what I said earlier :) But it's an exception.
The point is, don't leave the table on a miss... Unless the miss has built in safety.
Simply missing and selling out is the worst thing you can do in this game.

Other mistakes:

- Always going for the group with fewer balls, because they think that means it's easier.
The number of balls you made of stripes or solids on the break is 100% irrelevant.
Do not count them, do not care about it. Look for the most runnable group.
That sometimes is the group with more balls on the table.
As a side note, good players don't worry about how many balls were left after the win either.

- Overthinking the first shot and taking a flyer at a hard shot just to get the better group.
Having the better group is important, but not as important as keeping control of the table.

- Saving hangers for later and passing them up to shoot a missable shot. Don't shoot missable balls.
Use the hanger to get better position on the next ball. Then it won't be missable anymore.

- Saving "blockers" to prevent the other guy from running out. This is a scared way of thinking.
Play to run the rack, don't play like you're definitely going to miss later and you need to prevent
his runout. You might think "but I almost never have run a rack. I do it once a year!"
...well in that case your opponent is probably at a similar skill level so you might as well shoot
those blockers because even if you mess up, he probably won't run a wide open table.
And if he's better than you, shoot the blockers anyway because good players can figure out
a way to work around blockers.

- Shooting away balls that are necessary to solve problems. If there's only one ball near a cluster,
and you shoot it without breaking out the cluster, you're probably not going to run out.
If you're not going to run out, you might as well leave it there to solve the problem later,
and just take a harder shot instead.

- Leaving a lousy "key ball" to get the 8. Any ball near the head spot or head rail usually sucks for getting on the 8.
A lot of guys dog runouts and think "man I always choke on the 8". Well, maybe you choked or maybe you tried
your best but you left yourself an unnecessarily difficult 8 ball. Try instead to leave yourself a 'dogproof' shot
on the 8. It's so much nicer shooting an 8 ball from 2 feet away, off the rail, and straight in...
vs. a 50 degree cut, frozen to the rail, north of the side pocket.

There may be more I'm not thinking of but this is turning into a novel so I'ma leave it here.
Good luck.

edit: one last piece of general advice: hit most shots the way you're comfortable with, but any time you decide the best plan is to shoot a missable shot... SLOW ROLL IT. You want to block the pocket and create problems for the opponent if you miss. So play it at pocket speed. This includes banks. And if you have a choice of pockets to play tricky shape or shoot a tough shot, shoot into the pocket that has more of his balls near it.

For the 8 ball, some people may find a normal firm hit helps them cinch a missable shot. I'll leave it up to you whether to slow roll this or not. But in my experience, slow rolling it is far better. In some situations it's basically game over. It's hard for someone to run out knowing that a single miss = loss of game. They can't even safe you because kicking a ball hanging in the hole is pretty easy unless they force you to go 3+ rails.
 
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There are some great books like the 8 Ball Bible.
Read mohr's excellent 8 ball layout posts, he's made almost 20 of them in the past few weeks,
and many of the comments in there show a very advanced way of looking at a tricky rack of 8 ball.
This is one way to dissect each 8 ball rack. I didn't intend for it to be this long,
but I think it's gonna help you. I was in the same boat once.

• Scan the table. Does either group have zero problems, and is 100% runnable
(no blocked pockets, no tricky position required, every ball goes into its nearest
sensible pocket)? That's the group you want.

If both groups are that way (pretty rare) then take the group that 'controls' the 8,
meaning blocks it from going into pockets. If neither group controls the 8, just go with the easiest opening shot.

• If both groups have problems, you pick out balls that solve those problems... balls that easily break clusters,
balls that allow you to play shape into a small window, etc. After doing this, you usually will have a sense that
one group has more problems with no obvious solution. That group's much less runnable than the other.

Notice I keep mentioning 'runnable', at the highest levels, you are trying relentlessly to run out.
Your gameplan will almost never be "I'll sink these 4 balls, then play safe off this other ball".
If you absolutely can't run out but like one group better, make a single ball in that group and then do your safe.
Try to reposition a ball into an area that solves one of your problems, while leaving the opponent nothing.

If you try to run the rack and fail halfway through, it makes things 100x easier on the opponent to win.
He doesn't even have to run out, just run a few and then hook you on your remaining balls.
But if he's any good he will probably run out because you removed half the traffic from the table.*

• If you're going to take a gamble in a rack, such as an unnatural forced breakout or difficult shot,
do it as early in the possible in the rack. That way if you miss, the table is as tough as possible to run for him.*
Also whenever you go into a cluster, try to imagine what ball you can realistically shoot afterwards if successful.
This is called the 'insurance ball' in straight pool. Do NOT count on it being the ball you just broke out!
Just assume that the broken out ball will NOT work out and have an insurance ball picked out ahead of time.
If no insurance ball seems to exist, you may have already shot it off the table... doh.
In that case, your best bet is usually to go into a breakout softly and hit your ball before the opponent's ball.
You don't need to blast breakouts apart, you only need to move them a few inches. And if you go into
them softly, the outcome is more predictable. If you're forced to shoot the broken out ball,
it will be a lot easier from just a few inches away.

*Note your strategy in league pool might be a little different, in games where each ball is worth a point.
Then you usually want to cash in as many points as you can.


• In terms of patterns, going from the top down (clear one half, then the other) is not bad, but it really
applies mostly to wide open tables. If you have problems to solve, solve them early.
Even if you have a gameplan for them, do not take balls off the table and say "and on my fourth shot,
I'll go ahead and break that cluster"... break it on your first or second shot if it all possible.
Don't save it til the end. Once all the balls are opened, then you can pretty much roll your own.
Get rid of stragglers at the top of the table, then move on to the bottom.

• Pick out a key ball to get on the 8 ball. The kind of ball where, if you did a simple stop shot on it,
you'd have a pretty good shot on the 8. But don't count on getting a simple stop shot into the side pocket,
unless the ball is pretty close to the side. Getting straight in on a ball that's like 18" from the side is often
difficult and something can go wrong. Then you're forced to move the cue ball all around the table to recover.
A corner pocket shot where the object ball is fairly close to the rail is better.

• There are sort of three phases to the rack...
1. Getting control of the table
2. Solving problems
3. Running out.

Getting control: Your very first shot is crucial, especially if it's after the break.
You almost never want to shoot a missable ball here.
If I see that solids has 2 problems and stripes has only one, but all the stripes are tough shots
that I'm like 40% to make... then I'll just take solids. On the other hand if stripes
have a 75% shot, and the solid problems are hard to solve, I may gamble on that missable stripe.

I can't really give an exact formula for this but as a rule of thumb, don't shoot a shot you can miss.

Sometimes your first shot is missable for either group. Then you might as well gamble on the better group.
And occasionally your first shot is so awkward all you can do is cinch it, and then your next shot is tough too.
When that happens, just remember, you never want to run half the balls and then miss.
Is it worth it to take a flyer at a tough ball, ESPECIALLY if you 'earmarked' that ball to solve a problem?

Solving problems: Again just do this as early as you can. Some guys get locked in an "insurance blocker"
mindset where they refuse to touch a ball blocking one of the opponent's balls or tied up with one of his balls.
That's amateur thinking. It's fine to save a blocker if it's 100% makeable for you, but ruins one of his balls.
But most of the time it's not that simple, and both balls are unmakeable (or his ball is more makeable
than you thought... lots of ways to deal with blockers... bank it in, make it follow in one of his hangers,
play position on the 'short side' of the ball, etc.). Play to run the rack, don't play to sink half your balls
and then get mired down in a safety battle. When two balls are tied up so that neither one goes,
the guy with the advantage is the guy with more balls on the table. He can more easily play a safe
that results in ball in hand, and he has more 'ammo' for breaking up the cluster.

Running out: By the time you shoot any difficult opening shots, and then attack your problems,
and then reserve a single ball to get on the 8... you may only have like 3 left.
In that case the pattern will be pretty obvious.
Don't shoot a ball you can miss just for the sake of a "prettier pattern"!
Don't "save the easy ones for later"! Use them to get shape on the hard ones.

OK, to sum up, some common mistakes I see (and made) at the intermediate level:

- Selling out when the opponent has few balls left, or is on the 8.
When the opponent only has one or two balls left, you should either run out,
or immediately look for a really nasty safety that virtually guarantees ball in hand.
He should never see those balls again.

If you're trying to run out and get a little 'funny' and all shots look missable, you ALWAYS ALWAYS
play a two-way, meaning leaving him no shot on his final balls (or the 8).

Look for a shot where the natural leave gives him at MOST a tough bank shot if you miss.
Never take shot where missing = you 100% lose. Not if you can help it.

And if you only need to hide from one or two balls, it's ok to play safe halfway through the run.
I know, that sort of contradicts what I said earlier :) But it's an exception.
The point is, don't leave the table on a miss... Unless the miss has built in safety.
Simply missing and selling out is the worst thing you can do in this game.

Other mistakes:

- Always going for the group with fewer balls, because they think that means it's easier.
The number of balls you made of stripes or solids on the break is 100% irrelevant.
Do not count them, do not care about it. Look for the most runnable group.
That sometimes is the group with more balls on the table.
As a side note, good players don't worry about how many balls were left after the win either.

- Overthinking the first shot and taking a flyer at a hard shot just to get the better group.
Having the better group is important, but not as important as keeping control of the table.

- Saving hangers for later and passing them up to shoot a missable shot. Don't shoot missable balls.
Use the hanger to get better position on the next ball. Then it won't be missable anymore.

- Saving "blockers" to prevent the other guy from running out. This is a scared way of thinking.
Play to run the rack, don't play like you're definitely going to miss later and you need to prevent
his runout. You might think "but I almost never have run a rack. I do it once a year!"
...well in that case your opponent is probably at a similar skill level so you might as well shoot
those blockers because even if you mess up, he probably won't run a wide open table.
And if he's better than you, shoot the blockers anyway because good players can figure out
a way to work around blockers.

- Shooting away balls that are necessary to solve problems. If there's only one ball near a cluster,
and you shoot it without breaking out the cluster, you're probably not going to run out.
If you're not going to run out, you might as well leave it there to solve the problem later,
and just take a harder shot instead.

- Leaving a lousy "key ball" to get the 8. Any ball near the head spot or head rail usually sucks for getting on the 8.
A lot of guys dog runouts and think "man I always choke on the 8". Well, maybe you choked or maybe you tried
your best but you left yourself an unnecessarily difficult 8 ball. Try instead to leave yourself a 'dogproof' shot
on the 8. It's so much nicer shooting an 8 ball from 2 feet away, off the rail, and straight in...
vs. a 50 degree cut, frozen to the rail, north of the side pocket.

There may be more I'm not thinking of but this is turning into a novel so I'ma leave it here.
Good luck.

That book is a great read if you seriously want to get serious about 8 ball. There is a lot of startegy involved in 8 ball. Creedo has some very very good points here in his post.


If you have a ball that is tied up, get it out of trouble early. If you have a ball that will require pin point shape to pocket, as with the one that is tied up, get on that one early, don't wait till the end of the run cause if you don't get there, your in the crapper.

DON'T run all your balls off the table unless you can get out. Why would you clear the table for your opponent so every shot he has is wide open? Your balls are problems for him as long as they are on the table, not when they are in the pocket. The worst thing you can do is run 6 balls and not have a decent shot. If you see early that you are not going to run out, don't just keep making balls.

Play safeties. Safeties win games in all cue sports. Nothing is better than getting ball in hand other than winning the game.

If you have a ball that is blocking a pocket, which is also blocking one or more of his balls from being made in that pocket, for God's sake, don't shoot it in the pocket unless you know you can get out. If you can't get out, you are only making it easy for your opponent by removing his problems for him.

Think strategy, not just about pocketing balls. If you have blockers, and you can't get out, don't move them or pocket them. Many folks think you have to have your man snookered or hooked to play a safe. Not so. Leaving someone an incredibly hard shot is often a good safety. Sure, sometimes they will make the ball, but most likely they will not make it and you get to return to the table.

Look at the spot where you want the cue ball to end up. Visualize it in your head, put your hand or finger on that spot so you see it. Don't think about where you don't want to be. If you are looking where you don't want to be, that is where you will end up. The excecution part of your brain says "he's looking here so that is where I should put the cue ball" and viola, you are exactly where you don't want to be.

Enough for now but that are some of the basics that have written by those much more accomplished than I.
 
The area of my game that is deficient is my position play. Although I have been playing for many years, I knew nothing of the fundamentals. Over the past few years I have improved on my stance and shot routine trying to get down on every shot the same. Just a year ago I was introduced to the tangent line, so that is how little I know about position play. Recently when I get on the table I have been looking more to what the QB is doing and not focused so much on making the shot. Then I set and mark a shot on the table and shoot it repeatedly using different striking positions on the QB to see how the QB is affected. The position play is way off because I do not know what I am doing. It is just a guessing game right now and sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't.

Almost forgot, thanks for all of the replies. The information passed around on this forum is incredible.
 
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