Game situation - What would you do?

[Snapshot9]

A few more notes ...

The set was played on an oversized 7'.
I had no problem reaching the shot.

He broke, made nothing, and I had made
a real good soft bank with lots of angle
on the 1 into the corner down table from
where the 3 is, and held my cue to shoot
the 2 up corner from where the 4 was, to
get the shape on the 3.

The reason I chose the shot I did on the 3
is because I had to shoot very straight to
get past 7, had to also throw the cue ball
hard, the 5-9 were a factor, the angle to
have on the 4 ball was a factor, for getting
out the rest of the way (way 5 was laying),
and with so much throw I did not feel like
I could control the cue ball well enough
to get the angle I wanted on the 4 to just
go 1 rail back to opposite side, but I could
with the shot I intended (I have no problem
powering up for a shot). I just had too much
draw and not enough throw the first time I
shot it. When I set it up the 2nd time, I made
the shot exactly how I planned to do it the first
time.

The 5 ball would NOT go into the side pocket.

additional info - I was playing a guy that has no
problem getting out, kicks well, and jumps REAL
good. I was $40 down, we were playing for $40,
and I was anxious to get 'even'.

The way I felt, the right shape on the 4 and I was
out, but with a difficult angle or shooting off a rail,
and shape for the 5 could have been missed very
easily, plus I just didn't want him to get to the
table again.

Perhaps that help a little.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Like I said, if you can reach the shot comfortably enough, the shot I diagrammed is fairly simple. And with $1000 on the light I would love to have this shot instead of being in jail or my opponent running out

My point is, I don't think the shot can be reached comfortably. If it can't (and if it's a 9-footer, it can't), you play it safe for the cash. The cross-bank has a two-way outcome if you favor the overcut and ducking behind the 7 is an easy lock.

Regardless, Wei tables are always going to be difficult to judge. When you're staring at the shot and you're familiar with the equipment, everything is different. Slow cloth or deadish rails are going to favor safety play. Brand new cloth with Crown IV rails and you should have no problem getting to center-table position.

The other offensive option (which I'm surprised nobody has mentioned) is to baby the 3 in and bank the 4. Since you're dead-on for a straight bank, you should have little problem controlling the rock and you don't even need to be a great banker to nail this one down. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is the highest percentage play available. Unlike all other options, you're guaranteed to keep the cue-ball on the table AND get a full, predictable view of the 4-ball. With that 9-ball nearby, you may have some offensive options cut-down but it provides for a very nice blocker if you choose to play safe.

 

[sjm]

Here's the diagram of that shot:

START(%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%UO9F4%VR0F9
%WO1D5%XN8E8%Y[1Q2%ZO4C8%eB9a5)END

This shot, the stun across the table, is the only shot that makes sense to me. Whether the bridge is required or not is not a factor. Play the pattern the right way and if you can't produce all possible angles off the object ball or control with the bridge, practice with the bridge. Even with the bridge, I'm not betting against any "B" player to produce this angle while pocketing the ball.

 

[LastTwo]

SJM, snapshot made this thread and he explained that the stun shot was not an option, there wasn't enough angle. I believe he put the 7-ball where it is to emphasize even more that the stun was not an option, because with the 7 there you can't cheat the pocket to create more angle. My solution to the shot is only because Scott said the stun is not available, and I said that if you can reach the shot comfortably, then the inside english draw is the way to go. If I have to use the rake in that situation, I would consider one of Jude's options.

 

[sjm]

SJM, snapshot made this thread and he explained that the stun shot was not an option, there wasn't enough angle. I believe he put the 7-ball where it is to emphasize even more that the stun was not an option, because with the 7 there you can't cheat the pocket to create more angle. My solution to the shot is only because Scott said the stun is not available, and I said that if you can reach the shot comfortably, then the inside english draw is the way to go. If I have to use the rake in that situation, I would consider one of Jude's options.

Any angle, even just a few degrees, is plenty enough to play the stun, and this shot doesn't look straight. Even so, the stun across would still be possible even if the shot were dead straight, though by that point it would be fairly difficult to accomplish.

 

[LastTwo]

Any angle, even just a few degrees, is plenty enough to play the stun, and this shot doesn't look straight. Even so, the stun across would still be possible even if the shot were dead straight, though by that point it would be fairly difficult to accomplish.

This is definately one of those situations where the WEI table shows a shot layout different than it actually was on a pool table.

If the shot were dead straight, you would have to cheat the pocket to stun across for the 4 ball. You would also have to hit the ball fairly hard, and since the balls are positioned near a rail, slamming a ball cheating the pocket at that angle is a very low probabability unless you are on 5" pockets. You are also saying that even with the slightest of angle you can still stun across. With such a small amount of angle, and not being able to cheat the pocket because of the 7 ball in the way, the force you would need to stun it across is probably more than it would require to draw the ball. The balls are close together, there is absoloutely nothing difficult about the draw shot with inside english.

Can you post a diagram of exactly where the cueball will stun across? Maybe I am missing something but at that angle you would really have to slam the shot to get across and I think that is lower percentage than the draw, especially being how close together the balls are making the draw easy...

edit: SJM maybe this will make it easier for you to see exactly how much angle there is in the diagram. After seeing how much angle there is do you still think you can stun across:

START(
%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%UD0C1%VR5F7
%WC8C8%XM9E6%YC6C2%ZC8B9
)END

This shows that this shot is just a hair off from being straight in. Again this has to do with the WEI table not showing what the shot actually looks like in real life. I had to use the lines to show you how little angle there really is. Please don't tell me that you can stun across here, being that you have only 3/4's of a pocket to shoot at and the slight angle you do have is taking you into the nearby side rail first were you to attempt a stun. After hitting the side rail first it's going to take all the energy out of the shot.

If this was on fairly tight equipment this is exactly how I'd shoot the shot:

START(
%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%Qa7K5%UN5F0
%VR5F7%WC8C8%XM9E6%Ya3K9%ZS7G1%[S2F9%\N7E5%eA7b3
)END

 

[Fred Agnir]

Had this game situation hil to hill set.

Arrows indicate intended path of cue,
but cue drew back down the rail to
scratch in foot pocket opposite of
where 3 went.

START(
%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%UO9F5%VR0F9
%_r7O3%`U2C8%aO2E5%b]3V0%cg9[6%ds3O9
)END


(you have to copy from start thru end, and then use RSB table
one is at http://prostimo.com )

What would you have done?

I think this is a good case of what Jack Nicklaus would call "course management." In an effort to get perfect position, you made the overall shot pretty tough. If the desire path that you show was available, and drawing above the 4-ball to, say, C was unavailable, it looks like you can cinch the 3-ball, and play for the open area somewhere between A-B.

START(
%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%Q^2G1%Rf7J3
%Sc5R7%UO9F5%VR0F9%eC0a7%_r7O3%`U2C8%aO2E5%b]3V0%cg9[6%ds3O9
)END

This way, you've traded

1. the easy shot on the 3-ball and heinous position path shot

for:

2. an easier 3-ball with an easier position path but a tougher 4-ball shot (one you can make). The 4-ball to the 5-ball would be natural, so the tough shot can be discounted.

In my scenario, it is important that the shot from A-B to make the 4-ball become a comfortable shot in your (general) arsenal. If not, 9-ball will always become a game of "trying to get perfect position," which is a daunting task.

Fred

 

[mapman72]

My thoughts

Scott had mentioned that he was playing on a 7' table and quite often, the 7 footers will allow you to cheat towards the side rail. So, either this diagram or my thinking is WAY off. I guess my question is, according to the diagram, you drew the hell out of the ball off the side rail next to the three and back into the opposite corner pocket? If that's the case, then I don't see why you couldn't get to that rail for the one rail, center table position? If that truly wasn't an option, then I would have to verify that the five could go in one of two pockets - either the opposite side, or the corner beside the eight. Then straight in shape on the four really isn't that big of a problem. Also, considering this is a 7' table, I don't see anything wrong with following the same path you planned to take and stopping the cue ball at the intersection of the intended path and the headstring, give or take a few inches. You would leave yourself longer, but not a tough shot on a 7' table. Even the actual path of the cue ball, if stopped at the headstring would be a nice option and would have taken the scratch completely out of play. I would never choose the inside english draw on this shot. Although it's an option, I think it's just doing much more than you need to do to get shape on this ball and you risk missing the shot by trying to get perfect shape. If I wanted to do something aggressive like that, I would play the ball with extreme high left and try to miss the seven, coming two rails out for the four. And playing safe here, I just don't see it. Like Scott said, he was playing a good player and really didn't want to let him back to the table. If you're hill - hill with Efren in a big tournament, would you really choose this moment in the match to letting him out of his seat? NO WAY. Your best chance is playing offensively until your shape on the four, five, six, etc. dictates otherwise. Besides, even freezing the guy on the right side of the 7 and leaving the short rail kick is problematic if the guy is good at kicking for safe. You could end up kicking on the very next shot and he now has the upper hand.

These are just my opinions and all the different opinions listed here are the reason that this game is so great. The truth of the matter is that while 90% of the pros might play this shot the same way, 10% may choose a different way and still get out. So many shots, shapes, and angles. Man, I love this game. Thanks for the post Scott.

 

[Colin Colenso]

SJM, snapshot made this thread and he explained that the stun shot was not an option, there wasn't enough angle. I believe he put the 7-ball where it is to emphasize even more that the stun was not an option, because with the 7 there you can't cheat the pocket to create more angle. My solution to the shot is only because Scott said the stun is not available, and I said that if you can reach the shot comfortably, then the inside english draw is the way to go. If I have to use the rake in that situation, I would consider one of Jude's options.

As I pointed out before, I did not make my choice of shot based on the apparent angle of the wei table, but based on the evidence of the line he sent the cue ball up on the shot he actually played.

If he could get it out of the rail as he did then he had enough angle for the stun across.

I just think a lot of guys don't see this shot because they think it is too straight, but you really don't need much angle to stun out off a rail like that when you belt it with a touch of side which will accellerate it off the rail.

 

[Colin Colenso]

This is exactly how I'd shoot the shot:

START(
%CN0E7%DR9X6%ES9O7%Fl7Z8%GI3F0%Hk8I6%IT3Q7%PS3G0%Qa7K5%UN5F0
%VR5F7%WC8C8%XM9E6%Ya3K9%ZS7G1%[S2F9%\N7E5%eA7b3
)END

What you drew is impossible without a masse. Check your diagram...it seems to have the angle on the wrong side.

btw: The slight angle you drew in the previous one was close to enough angle to stun across one rail but I may stun a little deeper to take it up table to reduce the chance of a hook, but it would take a good whack. I'd shoot it for the fun of it and to wake up those sitting close by.

If it gets too straight for that shot, I'd just pinch the other edge and come back 2 feet almost in a straight line to sit above the S in the RSB logo.

I really don't want to draw up and down because the 8 ball is sitting exactly where I want to go.

btw: The stun across may have to be hit twice as hard as the draw shot, but it is a more controllable shot. Many B graders would make it ad then be surprised they did because the cue ball come off the object ball with a bit of spin that will liven, accellerate the cue ball off the rail, not kill it as you said.

 

[Snapshot9]

More info

What you drew is impossible without a masse. Check your diagram...it seems to have the angle on the wrong side.

btw: The slight angle you drew in the previous one was close to enough angle to stun across one rail but I may stun a little deeper to take it up table to reduce the chance of a hook, but it would take a good whack. I'd shoot it for the fun of it and to wake up those sitting close by.

If it gets too straight for that shot, I'd just pinch the other edge and come back 2 feet almost in a straight line to sit above the S in the RSB logo.

I really don't want to draw up and down because the 8 ball is sitting exactly where I want to go.

btw: The stun across may have to be hit twice as hard as the draw shot, but it is a more controllable shot. Many B graders would make it ad then be surprised they did because the cue ball come off the object ball with a bit of spin that will liven, accellerate the cue ball off the rail, not kill it as you said.

Using left low english would not have worked because the cue would have
ended up down table against the long rail almost, and I did not want that
angle on the 4 for getting shape on the 5. The only 2 pockets the 5 would
go into was the 2 up table corner pockets. (remember this was hill to hill,
and my opponent has no trouble getting out, plus he jumps REAL good.).
I HAD to have the right angle on the 4 to get proper shape on the 5.

The stun draw one rail back to the opposite side I did not feel comfortable
with because: just a slight angle, 1/8" maybe to work with on cut shot
on the 3, if that., would have to stun it really hard which negates control
of low english (felt I would stun it, but low english WOULD NOT behave
like I wanted), knew I could juice it up and pull the cue clear out of there going 3 rails and end up with good position on the 4 to get on the 5 the
right way.

I kind of felt that if I tried the one rail stun shot to the other side that
I might end up down by the 6, or just with the wrong angle on the 4
to get on the 5. I thought of trying low left stun shot, but felt that
it might react funny and run into 5-9 or just past and scratch in opposite
side pocket.

 

[fxskater]

If you can get off the rail a little, I like pocketing the 3 and leaving the CB for a straight in bank on the 4. From there, depending on the angle you can either top it through and shoot the 5 in the corner, or just drop down a bit and shoot it in the side.

 

[BRKNRUN]

My first option would have been Colin's stun shot option..You can make the CB move quite and amazing distance with very little angle..

If I felt like there was no way I was going to stun it over there, I may just stun the ball straight off the rail as far as I can. If the bank on the 4 is not dead on I would play the CB to the end rail and the 4 to the other end rail with the 5-9 as blockers....(unless I land in a advantages position where I can stuff the CB up against the 5-9)

Or If it looks right I might just go ahead and thin the 3 to the side rail and send the CB to the end rail with a 7 blocker...A jump cut there is very difficult to keep the CB on the table and the 8 looks to take away a one rail kick...

If he is able to pull off a multi rail kick then....he probably wins...(if he also manages to pull off shape on the 4.

 

[Captain]

I'd play for the bank also. The bank is a high-percentage shot and gives one position almost automatically. That's a deal it's hard to turn down.--AS

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

As I pointed out before, I did not make my choice of shot based on the apparent angle of the wei table, but based on the evidence of the line he sent the cue ball up on the shot he actually played.

If he could get it out of the rail as he did then he had enough angle for the stun across.

I just think a lot of guys don't see this shot because they think it is too straight, but you really don't need much angle to stun out off a rail like that when you belt it with a touch of side which will accellerate it off the rail.

I really wish I don't have to say this again but this is contingent on the equipment. The smaller the angle, the faster equipment you need. The stun shot is the correct shot, if it's available and if you can reach it (see my first reply). However, there are many factors that can take this shot away. The moment you enter that realm, this shot has a serious risk. Fail to get off the rail and you're safe. Compensate too much for the lack of angle and you miss the shot. Once this is all taken into consideration, you have to explore other options and weigh them against the stun shot. If you feel you can be more successful with another option, you have to take it. If there's no angle to stun, you cannot consider the draw so the shot diagrammed in the initial post is simply wrong.

The reason why I made other suggestions had to do with the fact that my perspective of this diagram shows a cheated shot. In other words, although an angle appears to be present, the 7 inhibits the shooter from taking full advantage of that angle. With that said, the shooter is hitting the side rail prior to pocketing the ball. If that's the case, you have to consider safety play or simply rolling the ball in and playing the bank. In my opinion, that's how you get the cash on this shot.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Using left low english would not have worked because the cue would have
ended up down table against the long rail almost, and I did not want that
angle on the 4 for getting shape on the 5. The only 2 pockets the 5 would
go into was the 2 up table corner pockets. (remember this was hill to hill,
and my opponent has no trouble getting out, plus he jumps REAL good.).
I HAD to have the right angle on the 4 to get proper shape on the 5.

The stun draw one rail back to the opposite side I did not feel comfortable
with because: just a slight angle, 1/8" maybe to work with on cut shot
on the 3, if that., would have to stun it really hard which negates control
of low english (felt I would stun it, but low english WOULD NOT behave
like I wanted), knew I could juice it up and pull the cue clear out of there going 3 rails and end up with good position on the 4 to get on the 5 the
right way.

I kind of felt that if I tried the one rail stun shot to the other side that
I might end up down by the 6, or just with the wrong angle on the 4
to get on the 5. I thought of trying low left stun shot, but felt that
it might react funny and run into 5-9 or just past and scratch in opposite
side pocket.

Snapshot,
The shot would be played with a touch of right English to make it come off the rail faster and struck very hard at or just below center ball. I think you should go out and hit some of these shots so you can see how little angle is needed and how predictable the angle and distance of travel can be with a bit of practice.

This type of shot, the power stun across, and its variations the stun through and stun back is something that should be practiced a lot. Snooker players use these shots a great deal as they are often getting near straight angles on shots.

btw: I may have confused people by using the term side instead of english.

 

[LastTwo]

What you drew is impossible without a masse. Check your diagram...it seems to have the angle on the wrong side.

btw: The slight angle you drew in the previous one was close to enough angle to stun across one rail but I may stun a little deeper to take it up table to reduce the chance of a hook, but it would take a good whack. I'd shoot it for the fun of it and to wake up those sitting close by.

If it gets too straight for that shot, I'd just pinch the other edge and come back 2 feet almost in a straight line to sit above the S in the RSB logo.

I really don't want to draw up and down because the 8 ball is sitting exactly where I want to go.

btw: The stun across may have to be hit twice as hard as the draw shot, but it is a more controllable shot. Many B graders would make it ad then be surprised they did because the cue ball come off the object ball with a bit of spin that will liven, accellerate the cue ball off the rail, not kill it as you said.

Colin I strongly suggest you try this shot....

 

[Colin Colenso]

I really wish I don't have to say this again but this is contingent on the equipment. The smaller the angle, the faster equipment you need. The stun shot is the correct shot, if it's available and if you can reach it (see my first reply). However, there are many factors that can take this shot away. The moment you enter that realm, this shot has a serious risk. Fail to get off the rail and you're safe. Compensate too much for the lack of angle and you miss the shot. Once this is all taken into consideration, you have to explore other options and weigh them against the stun shot. If you feel you can be more successful with another option, you have to take it. If there's no angle to stun, you cannot consider the draw so the shot diagrammed in the initial post is simply wrong.

The reason why I made other suggestions had to do with the fact that my perspective of this diagram shows a cheated shot. In other words, although an angle appears to be present, the 7 inhibits the shooter from taking full advantage of that angle. With that said, the shooter is hitting the side rail prior to pocketing the ball. If that's the case, you have to consider safety play or simply rolling the ball in and playing the bank. In my opinion, that's how you get the cash on this shot.

Jude,
You are right that the stun across gets riskier the less the angle and the slower the table rail and cloth. I would have to see it in real life to assess the risk and if too straight I would probably draw back to position A.

I re-read the original post and it says he drew into the corner pocket, though he was going for the line drew. That is a miscalculation of about 30 degrees which means he does not have much experience with the cue ball or was as drunk as a snake.

Did he say he put the ball back and made the shot he planned for? He may have set it back up with more angle. We'll never know, it may have been too straight or he may have hit it in too straight.

Anyway, if I looked at the angle and the draw shot around 3 rails was on as was shown in the first post, then the stun across one rail is makable.

So we'll never know exactly how much gap there was past the 7 or how much angle there was, but it seems for sure that many new players do not see stun across shot options, because they assume there isn't enough angle.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin I strongly suggest you try this shot....

Hi Last Two,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your diagram you pot the object ball slightly to the left of a straight line, but you also manage to bring the cue ball back slightly to the left of the straight line, rather than to the right side of the line which is how the physics of the shot actually work.

Maybe you just drew it wrong by accident or maybe you actually think you can do this

Actually I've met many not bad beginners who actually think they can do this with left english on the ball, as if the object ball acts like a cushion.

The are sure they have succeeded many times, despite the fact that the shot has gne array many times. The reason they sometimes get this effect is that they actually hit the object ball to the other side of the line and pinch the pocket...so to speak.

I'm not sure of your experience or knowledge on this, but a lot of players think they can do what you drew...but it ain't possible without a masse.

There is some very slight effects that can be made using side to slightly cheat the angles using both top and bottom, but not to the effect as seen in your diagram.

I don't need to go out and practice the shot, because I have played this or similar shots about 10,000 times over the last 32 years.

 

[LastTwo]

Jude,
You are right that the stun across gets riskier the less the angle and the slower the table rail and cloth. I would have to see it in real life to assess the risk and if too straight I would probably draw back to position A.

I re-read the original post and it says he drew into the corner pocket, though he was going for the line drew. That is a miscalculation of about 30 degrees which means he does not have much experience with the cue ball or was as drunk as a snake.

Did he say he put the ball back and made the shot he planned for? He may have set it back up with more angle. We'll never know, it may have been too straight or he may have hit it in too straight.

Anyway, if I looked at the angle and the draw shot around 3 rails was on as was shown in the first post, then the stun across one rail is makable.

So we'll never know exactly how much gap there was past the 7 or how much angle there was, but it seems for sure that many new players do not see stun across shot options, because they assume there isn't enough angle.

LOL if you had read my other posts I mentioned that since Snapshot said the stun wasn't available, I assumed it wasn't, and also how to setup on the RSB table can be decieving to the situation in real life. I am far from a new player, and have you tried my shot yet?