GC4 DID offer optional score counters

rexus31 said:
Hmmm...Massachusetts and Rhode Island are very close to one another. Maybe, just maybe, the mechanic that worked on these tables or the outlet that sold them, performed the retrofit. It isn't hard to do by any means and a competent mechanic can make it look OEM. Now, if you said I saw them in Boston and LA, you may have something, but you see three tables in close proximity representing 0.1% of the GCIV population and declare it was a factory option? Anything is possible, but I'd have to err on the side of not likely. At the end of the day, who cares? But hey, if you want to die on this hill, be my guest.
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Yes, their proximity makes that a small possibility.

But on the other hand, several posters, you included, are also willing to die on the hill that a GC4 was never offered with score counters. Because we all never saw them with our own eyes. And we all saw some document made 20 years ago showing GC1-4 that said the counters were standard on 1-3. I too was of that opinion until I did see them with my own eyes.

I care because this is showing something that we all thought was very true (me included), is not true. It sets the record straight.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Yes, their proximity makes that a small possibility.
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Small? LOL!
iusedtoberich said:
But on the other hand, several posters, you included, are also willing to die on the hill that a GC4 was never offered with score counters. Because we all never saw them with our own eyes. And we all saw some document made 20 years ago showing GC1-4 that said the counters were standard on 1-3. I too was of that opinion until I did see them with my own eyes.

I care because this is showing something that we all thought was very true (me included), is not true. It sets the record straight.
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Does it? If counters were an option, it would be on the GCIV sell sheet on the Brunswick Library, yet it is not.

For the record, I don't care either way. While interesting, I don't think your three table discovery (all within close proximity) is the silver bullet pointing to it being an option from Brunswick. Some folks still believe in the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, so more power to you.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Yes, their proximity makes that a small possibility.

But on the other hand, several posters, you included, are also willing to die on the hill that a GC4 was never offered with score counters. Because we all never saw them with our own eyes. And we all saw some document made 20 years ago showing GC1-4 that said the counters were standard on 1-3. I too was of that opinion until I did see them with my own eyes.

I care because this is showing something that we all thought was very true (me included), is not true. It sets the record straight.
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Here in Seattle there's a GC4 with score counters on the foot rail, I know that for sure, because I added them to the rail at the customers request as I was tightening up the pockets! You act like only Brunswick could have done that, therefore that was an option, AFTER Brunswick clearly stated that they made changes between the GC3 and the GC4's, with one of those changes being the fact that they no longer would be offering the score counters because it created a negative look to the simplified GC4 th ey would be offering next as the replacement to the GC3! You want proof they didn't make score counters and option, start calling Brunswick dealers and ask them, just make sure they were in business at the time Brunswick released the GC4, because I was, since 1983!
 
realkingcobra said:
Here in Seattle there's a GC4 with score counters on the foot rail, I know that for sure, because I added them to the rail at the customers request as I was tightening up the pockets! You act like only Brunswick could have done that, therefore that was an option, AFTER Brunswick clearly stated that they made changes between the GC3 and the GC4's, with one of those changes being the fact that they no longer would be offering the score counters because it created a negative look to the simplified GC4 th ey would be offering next as the replacement to the GC3! You want proof they didn't make score counters and option, start calling Brunswick dealers and ask them, just make sure they were in business at the time Brunswick released the GC4, because I was, since 1983!
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Yes, God, you are all knowing.

I'll stick to they were an option, maybe for only a very short period of time, and almost no one ever exercised it.

Seems way more probable than adding after the fact.
 
I got really bored behind some kick ass Ecuadorian coffee and did a lil search. Various outlets say that counters 'might' have been a factory special-order option. Key word here is 'might'. I'm going with the 'cobra and say that its more doubtful than likely. Let's say it WAS an option, B'wick by this time was just an assembler so someone would have had to do a custom job either in China(very unlikely imo) or here in the states. I'm sure 'usedtobesane' is tickled shitless over his find so lets just let him glow in his pool detective buzz. ;) Happy Memorial Day folks, i got beer to swill and gars to smoke.............................
 
garczar said:
I got really bored behind some kick ass Ecuadorian coffee and did a lil search. Various outlets say that counters 'might' have been a factory special-order option. Key word here is 'might'. I'm going with the 'cobra and say that its more doubtful than likely. Let's say it WAS an option, B'wick by this time was just an assembler so someone would have had to do a custom job either in China(very unlikely imo) or here in the states. I'm sure 'usedtobesane' is tickled shitless over his find so lets just let him glow in his pool detective buzz. ;) Happy Memorial Day folks, i got beer to swill and gars to smoke.............................
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See, I was right, you are nuts:) You spent time doing that;)

They could have made the modification at the Brunswick warehouse with some sort of fixture to cut it accurately. Or, it could have been a different end rail sku shipped from the factory in tiny qty's.

I mean, you buy a car, it comes with thousands of combinations of options. Its not that big a deal for a factory to accommodate a second end rail with counters cut into it.
 
Doesn't it look like the scorekeepers and rail trim don't match the corner castings on Mazin's table? The factory wouldn't put out a table with a silver scorekeeper/rail trim and bronze corner castings, so I don't think that table necessarily works as an example. If you saw them, did you check if the scorekeepers looked OEM, and did you ask the room owners if they were original to the tables?
 
Mr. Joshua said:
Doesn't it look like the scorekeepers and rail trim don't match the corner castings on Mazin's table? The factory wouldn't put out a table with a silver scorekeeper/rail trim and bronze corner castings, so I don't think that table necessarily works as an example. If you saw them, did you check if the scorekeepers looked OEM, and did you ask the room owners if they were original to the tables?
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I saw them, they looked super clean, oem.

I'm colorblind, so I forgot now if I noticed the color difference at the time. A few months later, I asked the houseman on FB if they were original. He said yes. But I doubt he was there when the tables were purchased... The person I asked was not Mazin. I just sent an email to Mazin, maybe he will answer.
 
I just asked the owner of Drexeline Billiards, a pro player, Florida Bob. He had a room full of mismatched GC's as his business expanded in the 90's. In the early 2000's, he replaced all 18 of his older GC's with brand new GC4s. They were installed by the factory techs.

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Talk about seeing some shit. Many years ago my wife saw Bigfoot by proxy, see saw me see Bigfoot in the back up camera while backing out of the driveway.
 
Mr. Joshua said:
Doesn't it look like the scorekeepers and rail trim don't match the corner castings on Mazin's table? The factory wouldn't put out a table with a silver scorekeeper/rail trim and bronze corner castings, so I don't think that table necessarily works as an example. If you saw them, did you check if the scorekeepers looked OEM, and did you ask the room owners if they were original to the tables?
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You are not only observant, but correct. Brunswick would have certainly color matched the counters with the rest of the metalwork. GCIII style counters (Brunswick or knockoff) could be sourced easily when the GCIV debuted. Problem was, they were either bronze plated or chrome. Neither of the two would match the metalwork on a GCIV.
 
rexus31 said:
Does "Florida Bob" have any pics to back up his claim?
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Dude, he ran a very successful room for 30 years before the shopping center was torn down. He’s not a liar. He’s a player thru and thru with a high run of 315. Corey learned to play in his room. He has no idea about this “debate”. And the way I phrased the question to him was completely neutral.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Dude, he ran a very successful room for 30 years before the shopping center was torn down. He’s not a liar. He’s a player thru and thru with a high run of 315. Corey learned to play in his room. He has no idea about this “debate”. And the way I phrased the question to him was completely neutral.
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Slow your roll with the accusations. Please show me where I said he was a liar. His credentials as a player and whoever learned to play in his room is totally irrelevant to the conversation. I've misremembered lots of things from 20+ years ago and I'm assuming I'm not as old as "Florida Bob". I've invested waaaay too much time on this. Congrats on cracking the GCIV case wide open. Well done.

Screenshot 2025-05-24 at 1.08.58 PM.png
 
Lost, or fabricated, quatrains of Nostradamus …

“ and from the ashes of the Great War emerged the 4th generation of the followers of the Crown of Gold .. all, save for the abacus, endures “
 
pt109 said:
Is there anybody in this thread who actually thinks those counters are an improvement?
I’ve had GCs where I had the counters pulled out and the holes filled….my knuckles and my cues thanked me.
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i can't stand metal counters, plaques etc.. non-flush pocket castings are annoying too but they're often installer error?
 
pt109 said:
Is there anybody in this thread who actually thinks those counters are an improvement?
I’ve had GCs where I had the counters pulled out and the holes filled….my knuckles and my cues thanked me.
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There are some piano black GC3’s in Waterford Mi that scratched up my cue.
 
jtompilot said:
There are some piano black GC3’s in Waterford Mi that scratched up my cue.
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The piano black GCs were artistic failures also….I talked a friend out of buying a pool hall full of them at a trade show by telling him to
lay his hand on a rail….you could see enough of his finger prints to call it forensic evidence.
 
rexus31 said:
Slow your roll with the accusations. Please show me where I said he was a liar. His credentials as a player and whoever learned to play in his room is totally irrelevant to the conversation. I've misremembered lots of things from 20+ years ago and I'm assuming I'm not as old as "Florida Bob". I've invested waaaay too much time on this. Congrats on cracking the GCIV case wide open. Well done.

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I mentioned his credential to show that he knows tables and pool inside and out. He even added that whole section about how he would personally fix all the counters on the older tables he had when the mechanic was there for reclothing, and that's why he opted to go non-counter on the 4. That's a pretty good indicator that he remembers the situation well.

Can you link me the build sheet you mentioned a few posts back? I couldn't find it. Thank you.
 
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