General rules question

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
its not considered frozen unless the opponent calls it frozen each time before your new inning at the table.

same as telling you you are on two scratches in a 3 fouls lose the game rule. or 14.1.
Ok, Scenario, there are 10-balls frozen to rails and a 30 second clock.

Do you think someone could say, "the 3-ball is frozen to the rail" 10 times in the 30 seconds the player has to shoot ?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Seems like that rule says that the FIRST contact is with the frozen ball, but the OP asked about the frozen ball being the second contact. Makes much sense being the first ball, but not sure how it is ruled when the frozen ball is the second contact.
The spirit of the rule seems clear to me - a ball must hit a rail after not being frozen to it (could be a ball that was rail-frozen but became unfrozen, then hit any rail - even the same one).

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I found it.
#37 on here explains it.
Those are not the current rules, but the particular rule about a frozen ball has not changed. Here are the current BCA/WPA/WSR rules:
 

Bob Jewett

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Ok, Scenario, there are 10-balls frozen to rails and a 30 second clock.

Do you think someone could say, "the X-ball is frozen to the rail" 10 times in the 30 seconds the player has to shoot ?
The referee should suspend the clock while the frozenesses are determined.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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The spirit of the rule seems clear to me - a ball must hit a rail after not being frozen to it (could be a ball that was rail-frozen but became unfrozen, then hit any rail - even the same one). ...
Here is the rule. I think it covers all cases with simple wording, but you need to know what "driven to a rail" means.

6.3 No Rail after Contact
If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object ball, and after that contact​
at least one ball (cue ball or any object ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul. (See​

A ball that is already touching a cushion and is driven into it is not considered driven to that rail.

As I've mentioned before, I think the frozen ball rule is not useful in the modern game.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
No. A ball frozen to cushion has to contact another rail after contact or the cb must hit a rail to be legal.
This is not correct. The intermediate ball in the combination can hit a rail instead of the cue ball after contacting the frozen ball to satisfy the requirement of a legal hit.
 

Z-Nole

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
its not considered frozen unless the opponent calls it frozen each time before your new inning at the table.

same as telling you you are on two scratches in a 3 fouls lose the game rule. or 14.1.
Yup. That’s the rule.
 

Breaking Bad

Registered
Here is the rule. I think it covers all cases with simple wording, but you need to know what "driven to a rail" means.

6.3 No Rail after Contact
If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object ball, and after that contact​
at least one ball (cue ball or any object ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul. (See​

A ball that is already touching a cushion and is driven into it is not considered driven to that rail.

As I've mentioned before, I think the frozen ball rule is not useful in the modern game.
I'm not clear yet on whether it's a foul or not.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You know what would be useful, is a book that accompanies the rule book, that is "Decisions on the Rules of Pool," as they have for golf.
 

Bob Jewett

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You know what would be useful, is a book that accompanies the rule book, that is "Decisions on the Rules of Pool," as they have for golf.
CSI/BCAPL has done basically that. The downside is that it makes their rule book 125 pages long. You can't even get players to read a one-page summary at the players' meeting.

But I agree that it is a good idea. It is also a lot of continuing work.
 

Bob Jewett

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I'm not clear yet on whether it's a foul or not.
For the rule, ask yourself two questions:

1. Was a ball pocketed? No.

2. Was a ball driven to the rail after contact according to the definition provided? No.

If the answer to both of those questions is no, the shot is a foul.

(Here is the full definition of what "driven to a rail" means from the official rules...)

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A
ball touching a rail at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered
driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the
table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to
any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also
Regulation 29, Calling Frozen Balls.​
 

chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
You know what would be useful, is a book that accompanies the rule book, that is "Decisions on the Rules of Pool," as they have for golf.

Mike Shamos does a column in EVERY Billiards Digest about this subject. Maybe he put it into a book?


Jeff Livingston
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Gold Member
Silver Member
Wait. If I poke the cueball legally with my cue, the cueball hits the 1-ball and the 1-ball rolls onto the frozen 2-ball, this is a foul?

The 2-ball is part of the rail, and so the 1-ball was legally driven to a rail.

If the 2-ball is not part of the rail, then the cueball could double-kiss the 2-ball onto the rail and be a legal hit
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wait. If I poke the cueball legally with my cue, the cueball hits the 1-ball and the 1-ball rolls onto the frozen 2-ball, this is a foul?

The 2-ball is part of the rail, and so the 1-ball was legally driven to a rail.

If the 2-ball is not part of the rail, then the cueball could double-kiss the 2-ball onto the rail and be a legal hit
Yes, its a foul. The 2ball is NOT part of the rail. The double-kiss you mention would be a legal shot. Better have someone watch that shot.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, its a foul. The 2ball is NOT part of the rail. The double-kiss you mention would be a legal shot. Better have someone watch that shot.
Except the rules say a different OB or the CB must hit a rail, ostensibly because it is part of the rail
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Except the rules say a different OB or the CB must hit a rail, ostensibly because it is part of the rail
The ball frozen to the rail is dead. It can leave and be driven back to the same(or different) cushion and be a legal hit.
 
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