Get pool out of the Taverns...
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I find it a bit curious that you stereotype bars (and their patrons) but not casinos.
In the long run, to grow the sport you need to get pool tables where kids can access them. How you do that is another question all together. Making tables accessible to kids, however, does not mean that you cannot also have tables in bars/taverns/poolrooms-with-bars.
I don't think bar tables tarnishes any image because most people don't hold the general stereotype of taverns that you expressed. Sure there are dive bars, but there are also very nice bars.
In the long run, to grow the sport you need to get pool tables where kids can access them. How you do that is another question all together. Making tables accessible to kids, however, does not mean that you cannot also have tables in bars/taverns/poolrooms-with-bars.
I don't think bar tables tarnishes any image because most people don't hold the general stereotype of taverns that you expressed. Sure there are dive bars, but there are also very nice bars.
I've recently reading all these threads about what's good for pool, bad for pool, and all the hoopla that comes with those arguments. It recently got me thinking about the depressed state of pool and a light bulb went off.
I know many will not support this argument, but I think it has a lot of merit behind it.
One of the problems with pool is the individuals we are introducing the sport to. I understand that leagues have been grandfathered in the taverns since there existence, and it has been profitable for league operators, but has it really helped promote the sport in the overall scheme of things? I don't think so. I'm trying my hardest not to be too stereotypical, but lets stop and take a look at where most of the pool population is congregating on a weekly basis. I can not speak for the rest of the country, but in my town the largest percentage of amateur or novice players are people of a below average economic status. These people are gathering in smoke filled bars where drunks and low lives hang out. What would be the turn on for somebody to want to enter the sport in that type of environment? It is an absolute turnoff for most people with any sort of formal education. Would you take somebody to play golf for the first time in the middle of the ghetto? Or maybe in Afghanistan? Hopefully the use of the extreme examples will allow you to grasp exactly what I think is keeping the sport we all love from thriving.
I think the focus needs to be turned from these establishments and concentrated in other areas. The Boys Club would be a good place to start. Cub scouts, girl scouts, country clubs, middle schools, and high schools would all be good places for us to take a look. Fraternal orders, summer camps, and other social dwellings would offer a friendlier atmosphere for the novice player. Casinos would even be a good place to hold leagues. They have a "poker room" where they make money. Why couldn't they have a few pool tables set up? It's just like a "rake" or check off. I wonder what the APA, VNEA, or some other leagues do for pool in these areas.
Perhaps this is something most people may think as hopeless, but I think with a bit of effort and a complete restructuring of how we introduce the sport to others could make a worthwhile improvement on the sport for the rest of time. The game is a wonderful game and takes the most disciplined of people to master. It can and should be appreciated by the masses. Hopefully with some of the great thinkers and players we have in the game we can overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are hindering us all.
We should of learned from the poker boom that took place a few years back that people love to compete and gamble. Poker has a surplus of players and people now from the excitement and thrill when it made its debut on national tv. Common people became interested and took up the game. Now they have a surplus of bodies and a huge "pool" of characters. TAR is onto something and has came the closest of most anybody in their latest endeavors as far as promoting and advancing the sport. With a few more things implemented, (I have some good ideas :smileI could see them being the driving force behind revamping the game and getting it into the mainstream.
I apologize if I have offended any league players, and I know there are thousands of them. I understand we have to have leagues, and they aren't a bad thing. I would just like to see them implemented in other establishments and be more appealing to the masses. Again, trying not to be too stereotypical.
Sorry for the long rant. :thumbup:
This idea is wonderful! Except the title implies the removal of pool from the taverns and that has no feasibility in the foreseeable future. There are many good ideas here; but the biggest obstacles here are some of the hardest things to fight; prejudice is the nastiest most illusive opponent the world has ever known.
I think the best plan of attack is to identify the problem exactly “how do we get pool to lose its seedy reputation?” I agree with the “put it in places that are not sleazy” theory as an avenue of attack but that is a catch 22; they don’t want them there because it’s seedy and a big reason it’s seedy is because they don’t want them there.
I think the big key is education; and what a corner we have to turn! What do you think pops into the average persons mind when you say “pool table”? A smoke filled bar room with drunks gambling, arguing and fighting. We have to go from there to putting in an image of a grand old game that involves physics with strong mental and physical capabilities that teaches our young not just those 3 skills but camaraderie, tenacity to excel at whatever and good sportsmanship as well.
So how? Well I would start by asking good players to be more proactive or at least less destructive; you know stop channeling Earl. Then get these promo people to get it in schools and places of education (more than it is now) as you suggested and get the educators to use it as a tool to teach physics, math, geometry, concentration skills (help ADD) and a host of social skills that are desperately needed right now as direct interpersonal communication continues to decline.
Just “putting pool tables where more good people are” IMHO isn’t going to work because you will have monetary loss from the people who put it there and that’s the last thing you want; and you will still have to fight protective moms, priests and a host of other outspoken “I know what’s good for people” people.
You make a funny point. The OP makes it sound like someone is standing outside the bar like a pimp saying, "Hay buddy want to play some pool, come on inside". Bar pool is fun and where most people like to play. For one thing, you can just go there and play.
In a pool room you have to bring your own party and for the most part you keep to yourselves as you play. Except for the bums who hang out there, it is not at all very social. In a pool room for the individual player beyond someone coming over and trying to get in their pocket it is not very social. Think I'm wrong, just read on here as people refer to anyone they think can't play as "Bangers" they love to put others down.
Bar pool has many advantages over pool rooms for the average player. Most bar players I know have no interest in going into an unfriendly pool room filled with jerks like many you find on here and paying $12.00 an hour.
A pool room also smacks of business and not a place to go and enjoy yourself meeting new people and just hanging out. Many pool room owners if you aren't spending money every minute get the hell out. Pool rooms can be very uninviting for a new patron and it often starts with the owner.
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Tap, Tap, Tap.
I'm also a white collared (though I prefer jeans and a tshirt promoting some unhealthy lifestyle) guy and have seen this myself. The 'wealthiest' among us often times are the tightest with their money. When people ask what I do for work at the poolroom I usually try to divert as it can kill a game pretty quickly. I enjoy the dives that I sometimes play in but certainly understand it's not for everyone.
To me, if pool is to flourish, it's gotta focus on the kids. All kids, from all backgrounds. Plant the seed and get it in their blood at an early age. Let the parents see that it's a healthy past-time that doesn't revolve around drugs and alcohol. Have summer programs/camps that aren't run by the stereotypical pool hustler. Kids hooked on the game bug their folks for a home table/cue for Christmas/birthday/quanza/etc. Kids grow up and want to test their mettle so they seek out local poolrooms.... and bingo, pool is "popular" again.
I picked up the sport when my dad got a table for the house when I was 8 or so. At the time it was just something to do, but it really took hold and now is a big part of my life.
Programs that try to get tables in public schools, boys & girls clubs and community centers are the way to go. You gotta get em when they young. Focusing on young/middle aged adults that already have obligations of career, family etc with little real free time is not a winning strategy.
Secondly, if you want to see Americans dominate the sport again, start a wave of kids picking up a cue before they're 8 and hold on to your wallets. Look at golf. How many champions are there out there now who started in their late teens/20s?
There is no quick fix to this 'problem' if it is to be solved right. It requires patience, focus and good marketing and it will take a while. The bevy of good tables on the cheap just begging to go to a school/camp/church are out there from all the rooms closing, all it takes is a motivated individual(s) to realize the opportunity.
Great post! My circumstances are similar to your own, i.e., I own a business and play APA. However, while we weren't dirt poor growing up, we were by no means affluent either. I love playing in the various bars associated with the pool league and find the vast majority of the people I come in contact with very enjoyable. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying they are likely better sports and more enjoyable to hang with than if they were all strictly upper tier white collar folks.
The OP has a reasonable point but, IMHO, not practical. I play in one of the Indianapolis leagues and if not for APA and the bar boxes, pool would likely take a huge step backwards in this area. There used to be several upper scale billiards rooms/bars but those have mostly closed.
Those who truly love and enjoy pool aren't about the place it is played at, they're about playing the game and enjoying the camaraderie with those of similar mind sets regardless of their social or economic standing. One of my former team mates, who I met through the pool league, often showed up straight from his work as a lawn and garden mechanic. 50 year old plus and he had a pony tail. Unlikely pairing but we became very good friends, fantastic and intelligent human being. And a very good pool player.
It is simple the only thing that has worked in pool over the past 20 or so years are pool leagues and people paying their weekly dues. Why cant the pros have a pro league where they pay their weekly dues. Then the pros can judge where they want to have tournys and what kind of tables they want to play on. IMO pool will never get to a pro level until pros pay their monthly or weekly dues like most things in live. Time to start paying up
I should have labelled my last thread, "This month's Pool vs XXX" instead, since now we're touching on bowling too.
Here's the problem as I see it, it's not the message, it's the messenger. We can all agree or disagree but it makes no difference. If I say I support an idea it might get a little traction among us. Someone else could say the same thing (as in the OP) and it might get a little traction again. Get Archer/Busty/SVB/whoever to say what we are and everyone will jump on board as if it's an original-never-thought-of-before-once-in-a-million-vision-of-a-lifetime-world-changer. Find a spokesman. Saying 8-ball can only be played on a 7' is death-knell for it as any kind of a pro-game. It just got relegated to drunks in a bar. No disrespect intended as Johnny would say, but that speech (assuming it gets picked up) will just drive another nail into its coffin.
My opinion stands because no one has changed my mind yet; pool is a 7' game, pocket-billiards (or whatever name) is a 9' sport. (FTR: My mind on gambling was changed, so it is possible, you just need to convince me).
Pool should be started by parents/guardians/teachers/etc. But as a living, it's going to have move beyond a bar before it gets sponsorship and before those kids come out of the parents house and onto the cloth. Two of us mentioned already our company's sponsor other sports but not pool. Think about why those company's don't when you ask for sponsorship dollars.
Bar pool is not evil or wrong but it's no pro event either.
Now then ... since someone here mentioned bowling has a solid business plan, please explain it for those of us that don't like wearing other people's hot n' sweaty shoes.
Here's the problem as I see it, it's not the message, it's the messenger. We can all agree or disagree but it makes no difference. If I say I support an idea it might get a little traction among us. Someone else could say the same thing (as in the OP) and it might get a little traction again. Get Archer/Busty/SVB/whoever to say what we are and everyone will jump on board as if it's an original-never-thought-of-before-once-in-a-million-vision-of-a-lifetime-world-changer. Find a spokesman. Saying 8-ball can only be played on a 7' is death-knell for it as any kind of a pro-game. It just got relegated to drunks in a bar. No disrespect intended as Johnny would say, but that speech (assuming it gets picked up) will just drive another nail into its coffin.
My opinion stands because no one has changed my mind yet; pool is a 7' game, pocket-billiards (or whatever name) is a 9' sport. (FTR: My mind on gambling was changed, so it is possible, you just need to convince me).
Pool should be started by parents/guardians/teachers/etc. But as a living, it's going to have move beyond a bar before it gets sponsorship and before those kids come out of the parents house and onto the cloth. Two of us mentioned already our company's sponsor other sports but not pool. Think about why those company's don't when you ask for sponsorship dollars.
Bar pool is not evil or wrong but it's no pro event either.
Now then ... since someone here mentioned bowling has a solid business plan, please explain it for those of us that don't like wearing other people's hot n' sweaty shoes.
You know, bars sponsor and promote baseball teams, soccer teams, and other such stuff like that so it makes sense that bars would sponsor the pool teams too, right? Years ago billiards was actually being touted as exercise and it was good for you and all that. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. There are tables, one or two, in most Boys clubs and presumably they could set up some sort of league situation but I think for most kids they'd rather be out side in the warm weather or at video games in the cold. Pool has several issues that I don't think can be overcome. First and foremost is that it's pool, the garage or basement game (get that - game) that really you don't need to be in any kind of shape to play. Those of us that play as a part of our way of life know that this isn't the case, but that's the way it's perceived. Try playing an all day tournament if you're way out of shape, even the best shooter will become tired and stop thinking. If pool were able to move into the Olympics it would expand the audience, create more American heroes (who doesn't love a guy or girl with a gold medal?), and give the sport some legitimacy. The Mosconi cup is great, but it's for pool players and in only involves a small part of the billiard world: USA and Europe. Hell, even the UFC gets more press than pool and all it is is a glorified bar fight. Getting kids involved is a great idea but try seeing it from the Boys and Girls clubs point of view - If you have $1,000 in funding you can buy one 1 (bad) pool table, or 50 footballs and basketballs and gear for 4 softball and baseball teams, that's a no-brainier. But I don't think funding is the main issue, I believe that pool isn't seen as serious pretty much by anyone outside the billiard world. It should at the very least be on the same level as Golf and Tennis or yachting. These other activities that I have mentioned have something that pool just doesn't have, most are Olympic events but all have a world stage to be displayed on and everyone knows when they take place. Everyone knows when The world cup is, or the Superbowl, or Wimbledon, or The Masters (shall I continue?) Even an event like the World cup of 9 Ball (?) or The US Open is pretty much only known among pool players and sometimes not even that. There was a thread here a few weeks ago about "What if Nike started to make billiard products?" If Nike, or Adidias or Rebok or Converse got behind pool can you imagine what that would do for the sport? I fear if that were to come to pass some bad things might happen as well, like individual custom cue makes would cease to exist. If pool could produce a real world event, like the Mosconi Cup, but a World event with Asian countries, the Philippines, The European countries competing individually, the middle eastern countries and so forth... and with some real sponsorship money behind it and a name like Nike or Rebok behind it, that could be a stepping stone to legitimacy and maybe an olympic appearance. Until then, until something like that happens, I guess we're stuck in the bars. (Poop!)
I guess what I am trying to get at is this. People that play good pool and laugh at league suckers and I do from time to time but one thing league suckers do is pay weekly dues from 5 dollars a week to 10 dollars. These suckers are paying between 50 and 80 dollars a month to play at an end of the year tourny in Vegas. If these league suckers can pay weekly dues why cant pro due it. Just think if all the pros would pay a hundred a month to play in bigger tournys every month. I know I could form a list of at least 256 players that should be playin for bigger cash than going around and playin a 30 dollar tourny and spending around 300 to 500 in a calcutta to see if u can win 2000. Great odds on your money.
I'm confused... are you advocating for leagues or insulting those of us that play in them?
Don't be a dick, if you can't read then don't, if you don't want to read it then don't
I agree with this thread pretty much in it's entirety,,,and I believe pool needs to be presented in a variety of different venues other than just bars. We have to get into youth clubs, churches, schools, colleges, community rec centers, etc,, in addition to what we already have in order to grow. Replacing one venue with another is not growth.
And in addition, we have to develop and promote a level above what is being done now, using the bars and other venues as a breeding gound, but at a level that sponsors and networks could sponsor and promote.
And in addition, we have to develop and promote a level above what is being done now, using the bars and other venues as a breeding gound, but at a level that sponsors and networks could sponsor and promote.
Nice responses...
I enjoyed reading many of the responses. I skimmed over some of the lengthy ones, but got the overall jest of the posts.
I suppose some of you are right as the title of this thread should be different. "Get pool out of the taverns" was just an attention grabber, which explains the ellipsis. Basically, we need to lift the game up and take it beyond the tavern play.
Denzy made a great point. I have thought of this "pro" league and it is the only way a professional tour can survive. A pro tour implemented with TAR and we could see the resurgence of pool on a professional level. I would start this off by donating 100 to sponsor a pro player in paying his monthly dues. This could also allow us to see pool on tv again. I mean they have bowling and spelling bees on ESPN these days, but no current pool!! This is sad.
For those who apparently took some offense and took this post as an argument to segregate pool, I apologize. That was not the intent. Sometimes though we have to be brutally honest and not lie to ourselves about things. Imagine taking Bill Gates to a local tourney or even a "pro" event in it's current state and try promoting the sport to him in order to get some type of sponsorship from Microsoft. Where would you take him?
I enjoyed reading many of the responses. I skimmed over some of the lengthy ones, but got the overall jest of the posts.
I suppose some of you are right as the title of this thread should be different. "Get pool out of the taverns" was just an attention grabber, which explains the ellipsis. Basically, we need to lift the game up and take it beyond the tavern play.
Denzy made a great point. I have thought of this "pro" league and it is the only way a professional tour can survive. A pro tour implemented with TAR and we could see the resurgence of pool on a professional level. I would start this off by donating 100 to sponsor a pro player in paying his monthly dues. This could also allow us to see pool on tv again. I mean they have bowling and spelling bees on ESPN these days, but no current pool!! This is sad.
For those who apparently took some offense and took this post as an argument to segregate pool, I apologize. That was not the intent. Sometimes though we have to be brutally honest and not lie to ourselves about things. Imagine taking Bill Gates to a local tourney or even a "pro" event in it's current state and try promoting the sport to him in order to get some type of sponsorship from Microsoft. Where would you take him?
We already have everything you mentioned. In fact there used to be an annual college champion, I am not sure if there is one anymore. I know Nick Varner won it once. There used to be an annual Boys club champion as well. It has all been done before. Bar pool was the only thing that really worked to bring pool to the masses and draw new players. Actually, pool rooms have never done anything to grow the sport they for the most part are just parasites making what the can from the game and putting nothing back.
No...not a jab at all. Just saying that good people play in bars and pool leagues. Just look where a pool league can lead you. Straight to the pro ranks.
So...rack 'em up....:thumbup: