Getting the cue on the line of aim

[WobblyStroke]

It's all theory concocted by Dave. The vision center nonsense is not factual. It's just his opinion and nothing more. You should always take that into consideration when viewing or recommending something. As for a pysically dominant eye--- that's factual. You are not in a position to say that it's not as important as Dave's opinion.

Dr. Dave isn't in that vid other than an honorable mention but I am interested in what makes you call this vision center concept nonsense? Surely it is more than just a baseless theory.

My take on sighting falls squarely in the Steve Davis school of thought.... you sight the way you sight because that's how you learned to see the game and changing it would be very uncomfortable and time consuming (can confirm as I have tried both going with a dominant eye aproach as well as playing higher off the cue in glasses and quickly quit both). This topic came up as Davis was commentating on a Neils Feijen match in the 2001 World Championship and everyone was marveling at how Neils was cueing under his ear. He did since drift more towards his dominant eye but he was outside of it by quite a bit at the time and certainly outside any idea of a vision center.

I personally cue under my chin and sight the shot with my weaker left eye rather than my dominant right. Reason: I took up pool only recreationally in my teens and since I wasn't planning on being serious about it I decided to use my weaker eye to help train it....which worked and over a few years my prescription actually improved on my weaker eye. with contact lenses making up visual acuity disparity between the eyes, I wasnt at any disadvantage playing with lenses in, but kind of a big strike against dominant eye sighting being tops as well. So ye, I think a lot of factors play a role in how you sight and see angles but as long as you remain consistent, you will continue seeing the game the same way you have stored away in your memory bank. For quite some time now I have no idea how I aim. No clue. Shots look right or they dont but as long as I am getting down in the same way and orienting my vision the same way relative to my cue, they look right a lot more often than not.

 

[FranCrimi]

Dr. Dave isn't in that vid other than an honorable mention but I am interested in what makes you call this vision center concept nonsense? Surely it is more than just a baseless theory.

My take on sighting falls squarely in the Steve Davis school of thought.... you sight the way you sight because that's how you learned to see the game and changing it would be very uncomfortable and time consuming (can confirm as I have tried both going with a dominant eye aproach as well as playing higher off the cue in glasses and quickly quit both). This topic came up as Davis was commentating on a Neils Feijen match in the 2001 World Championship and everyone was marveling at how Neils was cueing under his ear. He did since drift more towards his dominant eye but he was outside of it by quite a bit at the time and certainly outside any idea of a vision center.

I personally cue under my chin and sight the shot with my weaker left eye rather than my dominant right. Reason: I took up pool only recreationally in my teens and since I wasn't planning on being serious about it I decided to use my weaker eye to help train it....which worked and over a few years my prescription actually improved on my weaker eye. with contact lenses making up visual acuity disparity between the eyes, I wasnt at any disadvantage playing with lenses in, but kind of a big strike against dominant eye sighting being tops as well. So ye, I think a lot of factors play a role in how you sight and see angles but as long as you remain consistent, you will continue seeing the game the same way you have stored away in your memory bank. For quite some time now I have no idea how I aim. No clue. Shots look right or they dont but as long as I am getting down in the same way and orienting my vision the same way relative to my cue, they look right a lot more often than not.

Eye pathologies are a different story and create exceptions. Over the last 30 years I have worked with probably a few thousand players ---one-on-one. I'm not talking about groups. I've spent a lot of time studying this issue for myself as a player and for the people who I've helped, and have also consulted with ophthalmologists on it as well. Those are my credentials as to my opinions. I think I've made my position clear. I'm not one of those types who feels the need to clarify and clarify and then clarify again.

 

[straightline]

That's all fine and good if the stated vision requirements are indeed required. I cite carpentry as proof that the work (or shot) is a function of the geometry involved and independent of what the craftsperson sees. Pool doesn't even require the precision of elementary cabinetry and in the case of pool, the requisites are built into the equipment. If one 'can tell' where the stick goes, that should be sufficient visual acuity to incorporate into a working pool technique.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Eye pathologies are a different story and create exceptions. Over the last 30 years I have worked with probably a few thousand players ---one-on-one. I'm not talking about groups. I've spent a lot of time studying this issue for myself as a player and for the people who I've helped, and have also consulted with ophthalmologists on it as well. Those are my credentials as to my opinions. I think I've made my position clear. I'm not one of those types who feels the need to clarify and clarify and then clarify again.

All I'm sayin is if it is 'nonsense' you should be able to point out why. Listing experience and credentials to give credibility to your opinion doesn't make nearly as strong a point as actually pointing out something that is wrong in the video shared in this thread, which seems to make sense to those of us with apparently 1000s of hours less research than you have done from the sounds of it.

It is undisputed that we have 3 degrees of central vision where we can focus on detail with the rest of our visual field as peripheral vision which deals more with noticing movement rather than detail. So everyone is already sighting from that 3degree range. The concept of a vision center within that 3degree range where a person sees with fewest distortions at least seems plausible. Even in a previous response where you talk about varying degrees of dominance for the dominant eye, you seem to kind of make a point for a vision center...as in where the player naturally sees things with their binocular vision when both eyes are contributing to what is perceived will vary. Sometimes their dominant eye will truly dominate and the player will want to sight under or at least on the side of the dominant eye and other times it will not have as much pull, if you will, and the player will find sighting more centrally under the chin most comfortable and natural.

As I mentioned in my original response, I don't actually subscribe to the vision center theory nor your dominant eye one for that matter as I think many ways can work as long as you stay consistent with exactly how you view your shots. But, I am open to being swayed, as so many others in here are as well. So, if a respected coach in the forum is going to be dismissive of a concept that deserves to be called 'nonsense' I'd like a little backup for such a strong statement rather than a resume bc proponents of the vision center concept sure do have a lot of experience as well.

 

[chefjeff]

problem is,it's really hard to see if the cue is bang on the line when you're down on the shot,we're talking about mm precision here,not 'rough estimate' aiming

When moving your body lower, do it when looking at the tip and its relationship to the cue ball.

If you move your cue out of the plane, you'll know immediately if you're looking at the c/b and tip position. You won't move your grip hand out of plane and if you do, you'll see it happening and can correct.

So, when moving down, look at the cue ball/tip.



Jeff Livingston

 

[Wolven]

So you stand off to the side and swing across your chest?

I have experimented with both a pool stance (side stance) and a snooker stance. I can do either, it depends on the type of shot.
I will use my chest as a point of contact in snooker stance, but most of the time I don't, depends on the shot I guess.

 

[straightline]

I have experimented with both a pool stance (side stance) and a snooker stance. I can do either, it depends on the type of shot.
I will use my chest as a point of contact in snooker stance, but most of the time I don't, depends on the shot I guess.

I can't quite envision it but I see your point. Also having that dialed in and locked stance probably requires accurate pre - alignment of the stick. However you actually shoot, the alignment problem is the reason I started with connect the dots aiming.

 

[FranCrimi]

All I'm sayin is if it is 'nonsense' you should be able to point out why. Listing experience and credentials to give credibility to your opinion doesn't make nearly as strong a point as actually pointing out something that is wrong in the video shared in this thread, which seems to make sense to those of us with apparently 1000s of hours less research than you have done from the sounds of it.

It is undisputed that we have 3 degrees of central vision where we can focus on detail with the rest of our visual field as peripheral vision which deals more with noticing movement rather than detail. So everyone is already sighting from that 3degree range. The concept of a vision center within that 3degree range where a person sees with fewest distortions at least seems plausible. Even in a previous response where you talk about varying degrees of dominance for the dominant eye, you seem to kind of make a point for a vision center...as in where the player naturally sees things with their binocular vision when both eyes are contributing to what is perceived will vary. Sometimes their dominant eye will truly dominate and the player will want to sight under or at least on the side of the dominant eye and other times it will not have as much pull, if you will, and the player will find sighting more centrally under the chin most comfortable and natural.

As I mentioned in my original response, I don't actually subscribe to the vision center theory nor your dominant eye one for that matter as I think many ways can work as long as you stay consistent with exactly how you view your shots. But, I am open to being swayed, as so many others in here are as well. So, if a respected coach in the forum is going to be dismissive of a concept that deserves to be called 'nonsense' I'd like a little backup for such a strong statement rather than a resume bc proponents of the vision center concept sure do have a lot of experience as well.

And all I'm saying is I already explained my reason for it being nonsense. There's no reason to clarify.

 

[WobblyStroke]

When moving your body lower, do it when looking at the tip and its relationship to the cue ball.

If you move your cue out of the plane, you'll know immediately if you're looking at the c/b and tip position. You won't move your grip hand out of plane and if you do, you'll see it happening and can correct.

So, when moving down, look at the cue ball/tip.



Jeff Livingston

Def a different strokes for different folks spot here again as I do and generally recommend the opposite. I like your reasoning and am glad it works for you so worth a shot for others to try but I am on opposite end here. I absolutely have to be locked in on my aim point or contact point as I get down on the shot in order to remain fixed on that spot from the aiming I did when upright as that same spot will look a bit different from the lowered position. For me, if I switch my focus to the Q ball when getting down around the cue I'd be a bit unsure of my aim point and that would lead to all sorts of other problems, so def laser focus on where I want to aim up to on the way down for me.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

And all I'm saying is I already explained my reason for it being nonsense. There's no reason to clarify.

I must have missed that. Can you point it out?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I must have missed that. Can you point it out?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

Sheesh.....

I'm saying --- IT'S OKAY TO SEE INACCURATELY --- JUST ADJUST TO IT. Trying to force something that's unnatural will tire out the player, including their eyes, and the cue will continuously try to drift to the dominant eye which grabs and transmits the vision first, so the player will have to stay conscious and aware at all times if they insist on fighting that. There's no reason to fight it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the cue will continuously try to drift to the dominant eye

I think that tendency is pretty central to the vision center idea. Its purpose is to help the player identify their natural best viewpoint for accurate shot visualization, not to "force" anything. You might like it more than you think, once you got to know it.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

I don't get the whole dominant eye trouble theory.

When I'm down on a shot and close my right eye, my perspective of the cue is way off. I have to turn my head to the right, getting my left eye over the cue, then it looks right again. Change my visual perspective, not my cue or body positioning.
Same thing if I close my left eye and only use my right.

My point is...when you focus on a distant object and it looks like you're locked straight on with it, regardless of eye dominance, your vision center is at the proper perspective and you are seeing exactly where you are looking. So when lining your cue up for a shot, if it doesn't look right, you're not lined up. It's only on line when it looks like it's on line. Missed shots are generally stroke related or aim related - not hitting the cb accurately or simply aiming the wrong line to pocket the ball.

I've read all the dominant eye theory stuff and I honestly don't see how it creates aiming problems for pool players. But I'm all ears if someone can show or teach me what I'm missing here.

Side note: A dominant eye doesn't see better than a non-dominant eye. It doesn't provide a clearer or more detailed image. It simply communicates better with the brain, and therefore the brain favors it.

 

[z0nt0n3r]

When moving your body lower, do it when looking at the tip and its relationship to the cue ball.

If you move your cue out of the plane, you'll know immediately if you're looking at the c/b and tip position. You won't move your grip hand out of plane and if you do, you'll see it happening and can correct.

So, when moving down, look at the cue ball/tip.



Jeff Livingston

i've tried it and it results in aiming the CB exactly where i intend but i still wasn't aiming the OB correctly very often,so i wasn't able to aim both balls correctly.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Sheesh.....

I'm saying --- IT'S OKAY TO SEE INACCURATELY --- JUST ADJUST TO IT. Trying to force something that's unnatural will tire out the player, including their eyes, and the cue will continuously try to drift to the dominant eye which grabs and transmits the vision first, so the player will have to stay conscious and aware at all times if they insist on fighting that. There's no reason to fight it.

I agree with the caps. As someone who not only uses a non-optimal viewpoint for my vision but also literally aims with the weaker eye, I can attest to the fact that once you learn to see the game and adjust to the way you see the game, that is the way you see it and it works just fine. And at this point, it gets really difficult to change. It is so difficult for me to aim accurately in glasses with my eyes higher up off the cue that I rather play with no corrective lenses at all than in glasses bc the crisper, clearer image does me no good if I'm perceiving the angle incorrectly from the higher vantage point.

Maybe I didn't understand vision center correctly but isn't the entire point of finding your vision center to identify the place where you see what you are looking at without distortion...something you don't need to force. This seems like the place your cue would want to pull towards...the center of your vision, not always arbitrarily towards the dominant eye. As an example, if I am lined up to the right of my vision center as a right-eye-dominant player, it would make more sense to me for the cue to pull towards the center of my visual field (the picture formed by both eyes) rather than go further right towards my dominant eye and pull me further off center.

Maybe

 

[FranCrimi]

I think that tendency is pretty central to the vision center idea. Its purpose is to help the player identify their natural best viewpoint for accurate shot visualization, not to "force" anything. You might like it more than you think, once you got to know it.

pj
chgo

If that tendency is central to the vision center idea, then why not just advocate placing the cue under your dominant eye? No, that's not what the vision center theory is about. It even refutes the role of the dominant eye. It's got followers here drinking the Kool Aid, saying dominant eye isn't important.

I agree with everyone who says that the intent of that theory is to find where the player sees most accurately. That can hurt players who try to force the cue to a place where it strains the eyes over time. They won't feel it right away. It takes awhile. I've seen examples of players who use this theory and then over time are worse than ever. Besides being nonsensical, I think it's a dangerous theory.

One example here is one poster who used that system and found that he saw the best with his cue under his recessive eye. He was so excited about it he posted his happiness. I even recall warning him that this placement might not be right. He flatly refused. I can understand that because he was so excited and I do believe that at that time he was probably seeing better. Months later he was in a state of confusion. He started missing and didn't know what was going on. He said he was confused about what he was seeing and started to doubt his cue placement. Sorry that I can't remember who he was --- it was a few years back. But I also encountered examples in teaching I've done over time. I don't make this stuff up. I'm a good observer and I pay attention.

 

[bbb]

some of you might find this an interesting read
it deals with head position eye position dominant eye and many variations

Amazon.com

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the cue will continuously try to drift to the dominant eye which grabs and transmits the vision first

I think that tendency is pretty central to the vision center idea.

If that tendency is central to the vision center idea, then why not just advocate placing the cue under your dominant eye?

Because even though the dominant eye is the major influence, and the vision center is usually closer to the dominant eye, directly under the dominant eye isn't always the best position for the cue.

No, that's not what the vision center theory is about. It even refutes the role of the dominant eye. It's got followers here drinking the Kool Aid, saying dominant eye isn't important.

Doesn't seem like you've actually looked into the vision center idea with an open mind - or maybe not at all? Here's the first sentence about that on Dr. Dave's Vision Center page:

"Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye (e.g., if they have strong eye dominance and/or vision impairment in the other eye). For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between (or even outside of) their eyes."

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Because even though the dominant eye is the major influence, and the vision center is usually closer to the dominant eye, directly under the dominant eye isn't always the best position for the cue.


Doesn't seem like you've actually looked into the vision center idea with an open mind - or maybe not at all? Here's the first sentence about that on Dr. Dave's Vision Center page:

"Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye (e.g., if they have strong eye dominance and/or vision impairment in the other eye). For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between (or even outside of) their eyes."

pj
chgo

I don't think you're viewing my opinion with an open mind and I'm not sure that you're getting my point. How many times has Dave and his followers said that dominant eye is not the issue in finding the so-called vision center? If it happens to align with the dominant eye then so be it. Well, that's if you are one of the lucky ones who sees close to reality with your dominant eye. What about the others who don't? They are encouraged through this system to place their cue somewhere else. So what does this system really accomplish other than to reinforce dominant eye placement for some and lead others astray?

 

[bbb]

I don't think you're viewing my opinion with an open mind and I'm not sure that you're getting my point. How many times has Dave and his followers said that dominant eye is not the issue in finding the so-called vision center? If it happens to align with the dominant eye then so be it. Well, that's if you are one of the lucky ones who sees close to reality with your dominant eye. What about the others who don't? They are encouraged through this system to place their cue somewhere else. So what does this system really accomplish other than to reinforce dominant eye placement for some and lead others astray?

fran
how many players over your lifetime have you seen hold the cue DIRECTLY under one eye or the other?
my guess is very few if any
if my guess is correct
the reason players have their cue somewhere between their nose and the pupil of one eye or the other (except for players who have the cue directly under the middle of their chin and have their nose pointed along the cue shaft line...which i think are in the minority)
its because thats where the balance of info to their brain from their dominat eye and "inferior " eye equals out
to let them "see straight"
thats their vision center head position
assuming they use 2 eyes to aim and shoot
that book i referenced above although he recommends some thing different from vision center
how he explains how we "see" is interesting to consider
jmho
you thoughts always welcome.....