Gilbert vs. Varney

Worminator said:
To me, these comments say; I am either not talented enough, do not have the right equipment, am not willing to learn, or am too stubborn to do this…

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because all I want to do is this…

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So, by the same logic is Southwest too stubborn as well?

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You're comparing two completely different styles. Gilbert focuses on intricate inlays & detailed ornamentation. Southwest focuses on a natural look; they let the wood speak for itself.

To me, your statement is comparable to saying, "Salvador Dali isn't a good artist because he's to stubborn & not talented enough to do anything but surrealism." Knock a man's craftsmanship all you want, if you have the ammunition, but I think it's ludicrous to stand there and insult the styles a man gravitates toward in pursuit of an art.
 
MattRDavis said:
So, by the same logic is Southwest too stubborn as well?

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there are a noticeable number of 'fancy' SW's floating around. VERY fancy.

I'm just sayin'

southwest_pool_cues.jpg


-s
 
steev said:
there are a noticeable number of 'fancy' SW's floating around. VERY fancy.
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Yes, I know, but that didn't stop them from being too stubborn & ignorant to make a cue as boring as the one I referenced above.

To those who are unaware, that is the sarcastic font.
 
Andy will make you any cue you want. I think you have your points backwards. The point is, KV will not make ANY cue you want. Nice try to turn it around, though.

-s

edit: I'm not trying to rip on anyone here, just clearing up a point.
 
steev said:
Andy will make you any cue you want. I think you have your points backwards. The point is, KV will not make ANY cue you want. Nice try to turn it around, though.
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What?

I'm not here to chase my tail, brother, and I certainly know how not to debate myself into a circle. Whatever you're implying is as clouded as it is irrelevant.

I'll clarify my prior statements and use bullet points to separate the key facts into easily comprehensible tidbits:

  • Not every cuemaker has to adopt the same style
  • Not every style has to be comparable to another style
  • Not every style has to be as demanding as another style
  • No style is more important than any other style
  • No style is universally accepted as the ideal style

Art isn't judged by the amount of paint on the canvas.
 
!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no answer to the question. Its individual preference an subjective to the individual player.
Pinocchio
 
MattRDavis said:
What?

I'm not here to chase my tail, brother, and I certainly know how not to debate myself into a circle. Whatever you're implying is as clouded as it is irrelevant.

I'll clarify my prior statements and use bullet points to separate the key facts into easily comprehensible tidbits:

  • Not every cuemaker has to adopt the same style
  • Not every style has to be comparable to another style
  • Not every style has to be as demanding as another style
  • No style is more important than any other style
  • No style is universally accepted as the ideal style

Art isn't judged by the amount of paint on the canvas.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point by framing this as a stylistic difference. It's not. There are tangibles in cuemaking, about the only intangible aspects are "hit" and perhaps "design." Levels of execution has nothing to do with style.

By your line of argument we can NEVER compare or rank cuemakers. Mottey and Varney are equally skilled as builders, they just make different styled cues. Don't ever put Dave Fingers out of contention with Pete Tascarella; Dave builds different style cues, that's all.

Does that make any sense?

-Roger
 
buddha162 said:
By your line of argument we can NEVER compare or rank cuemakers. Mottey and Varney are equally skilled as builders, they just make different styled cues. Don't ever put Dave Fingers out of contention with Pete Tascarella; Dave builds different style cues, that's all.

Does that make any sense?
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Actually it makes quite a bit of sense.

You can compare & rank cuemakers in accordance with your own tastes. This is about two makers & the performance of their break cues, we're not arguing aesthetics, execution, or anything else. We were asked which cue performs better, and that is an unanswerable question.

It is a very specific question about a cue designed for a very specific task. It's equivalent to someone posing the question, "Which car will be better at getting me to the store: a Honda Civic or a Porsche?" The answer, of course, is neither; the price tag & the aesthetics are irrelevant. Both vehicles are suitably equipped to handle the drive; it just comes down to personal preference and which one you will be more comfortable driving in.

I find it ironic how you subtly insult Varney's ability to make a cue, trying to slip things by in the subtext, while at the same time espousing your belief that he should be, in your opinion, more up front about his cues.

If you have something to say, be up front, and just say it.
 
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steev said:
there are a noticeable number of 'fancy' SW's floating around. VERY fancy.

I'm just sayin'

southwest_pool_cues.jpg


-s
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This post isn't really the most honest response that could have been given.

Lets see.

Truth is, that you can ad your self to the list today, wait the 7 or 8 years, and then offer to pay ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY for a fancy cue, and southwest will NOT build it for you. This is a fact!!!!!

The fancy southwest cues essentially died when Jerry did.

Laurie has been saying for 2 years now, that they will begin making inlayed cues again when they "find" someone capable. By her own admission, they couldn't build a fancy cue even if they wanted to, they admittedly don't have the skill!

rg
 
MattRDavis said:
This is about two makers & the performance of their break cues, we're not arguing aesthetics, execution, or anything else.
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No, that was the original question; this thread has progressed from there.

I find it ironic how you subtly insult Varney's ability to make a cue, trying to slip things by in the subtext, while at the same time espousing your belief that he should be, in your opinion, more honest about his cues.
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Nice commentary. Once again I don't think confirming reality is insulting behavior, but that's just me. If you want to espouse (nice word) the belief that everything and everyone is relative in cuemaking, from some guy who slaps a joint and shaft on a sneaky pete and applies a "satin" finish (just like Jerry Franklin did, lmao) to a guy who borders his peacocks with silver and scrims perfect ink and cut nice points and builds his own forearms and uses a real finish...go right ahead.

Was that too subtle?

-Roger
 
NYC cue dude said:
This post isn't really the most honest response that could have been given.

Lets see.

Truth is, that you can ad your self to the list today, wait the 7 or 8 years, and then offer to pay ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY for a fancy cue, and southwest will NOT build it for you. This is a fact!!!!!

The fancy southwest cues essentially died when Jerry did.

Laurie has been saying for 2 years now, that they will begin making inlayed cues again when they "find" someone capable. By her own admission, they couldn't build a fancy cue even if they wanted to, they admittedly don't have the skill!

rg
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See, this is the kind of shit that makes me spew coffee over my keyboard.

You take the one shop that is built on their players' cues, a shop with over 30 years worth of collective cuebuilding experience, and say, There: they can't cut a sharp inlay pocket, Varney can't cut a sharp inlay pocket, therefore, obviously, it comes down to STYLE.

And btw Randy, dozens of people can do a "fancy" SW these days.

-Roger
 
buddha162 said:
Was that too subtle?
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No, that was much better.

It's fairly obvious that we are not going to reach any sort of agreement on this matter so I'll bow out with the hope that this thread can return to, and answer, the question at hand.
 
From an outsider looking in on this post I wanted to say a few things.

I've been following this post and I like some of the opinions brought up and don't think much of some other opinions, but everyone (including myself) has their own opinions that have been formed by a multitude of factors that are different for each individual, hence the differing opinions. (I'm probably stating the obvious here, but I think the obvious needs to be "refreshed" to some at this point. ;) )

So here's my opinion..............the two cue makers in question on this post obviously have two totally different passions and motivations and I can respect them both equally since I have/play with neither. Can you? I hope so.

After reading this post, if I were in the market for an awesome jump/break cue I'd have to seriously consider a Varney (but I'm picking up my new Diveney J/B in a few days because he's a local cue maker that has impressed me with his workmanship and because I got "hands on" experience with his J/B that left me with the "I've GOT to have one of these!" feelings. :D ), if I were in the market for a fancy, custom, one of a kind cue with impeccable craftmanship, I'd have to seriously consider a Gilbert. Could either one of them make me a great playing cue? Yep, I believe either one of them could and I wish nothing but good fortune and future success for them both. Let's give them both respect as it seems to me they both deserve it, but hey, that's just my opinion. :cool:

Personally I like a clean look to my cue w/o a bunch of inlays, but that's just my personal preference. Each to their own guys.

Peace out.

Trevor
 
MattRDavis said:
What?

I'm not here to chase my tail, brother, and I certainly know how not to debate myself into a circle. Whatever you're implying is as clouded as it is irrelevant.

I'll clarify my prior statements and use bullet points to separate the key facts into easily comprehensible tidbits:

  • Not every cuemaker has to adopt the same style
  • Not every style has to be comparable to another style
  • Not every style has to be as demanding as another style
  • No style is more important than any other style
  • No style is universally accepted as the ideal style

Art isn't judged by the amount of paint on the canvas.
Click to expand...

Matt-
Your intended point was to make us look at a Satin South West and say "Oh! They make plain janes too. And they're elite cuemakers." But where you failed to make that point was in realizing that the last word in that sentence is important. They make plain janes TOO!!!
Its not all they do. As pointed out by someone in the post above, there are a great number of fancy South West cues out there. As Kevin pointed out, his "fancy" or high end cues are wrapless four-pointers with one or two veneers. Therein lies the difference.
 
NYC cue dude said:
This post isn't really the most honest response that could have been given.

Lets see.

Truth is, that you can ad your self to the list today, wait the 7 or 8 years, and then offer to pay ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY for a fancy cue, and southwest will NOT build it for you. This is a fact!!!!!

The fancy southwest cues essentially died when Jerry did.

Laurie has been saying for 2 years now, that they will begin making inlayed cues again when they "find" someone capable. By her own admission, they couldn't build a fancy cue even if they wanted to, they admittedly don't have the skill!

rg
Click to expand...

While it is true that South West is not presently making inlaid cues, the fancy South West did NOT die with Jerry Franklin. The South West shop was pumping out inlaid cues as recently as 2000 (and I believe shortly after). Don't believe me? Well chady might be able to back me up. He has (or had) a few late 1999 fancy SWs.

http://www.pccues.com/productslist.aspx?CategoryID=14&selection=19
 
pharaoh68 said:
While it is true that South West is not presently making inlaid cues, the fancy South West did NOT die with Jerry Franklin. The South West shop was pumping out inlaid cues as recently as 2000 (and I believe shortly after). Don't believe me? Well chady might be able to back me up. He has (or had) a few late 1999 fancy SWs.

http://www.pccues.com/productslist.aspx?CategoryID=14&selection=19
Click to expand...

I sold a couple of fancy inlaid SW's, post Franklin years.

-Roger
 
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