Gimmicks?

[Patrick Johnson]

...how is an LD shaft superior to someone using a standard shaft, bridging at the pivot point, and using backhand english?

Why does one have to be generally superior? They can each be advantageous to the users who choose them.

Backhand english isn't an exact science. Rarely is a shaft's pivot point exactly at its user's bridge distance (there is no "standard" shaft in this respect), and because of swerve the "effective pivot point" is different for almost every shot anyway. This means that the player is constantly estimating the amount of "adjustment" needed to make backhand english work, pretty much just like a non-backhand english user does.

Backhand english gives the higher-squirt shaft user a starting point that's closer to accurate, and so does a lower-squirt shaft compared to a higher-squirt shaft. I don't think it can be said which is objectively better or worse - it's probably, as Fred says, a matter of personal abilities and preference.

pj
chgo

 

[PetToilet]

Just curious, what exactly defines a "low squirt shaft"? Is it taper? Construction method? Denseness of the wood?

please do some more research before bashing something. and then once you learn about it don't pretend you're a guru to the people that informed you.

 

[JoeyA]

Dangerous thoughts.....

Low squirt shafts produce less squirt. That's all. They don't produce more spin.

But less squirt is a significant performance advantage.

pj
chgo

I've been thinking about low squirt shafts producing more spin and I think MAYBE, that since the shafts produce less squirt, the cue ball simply seems to swerve (curve) more when side spin is applied.

The lower amounts of squirt with a low squirt shaft(which sends the cue ball in opposite direction as swerve does) allows the cue ball to effectively curve more than a standard maple shaft (high deflection shaft) since there is less squirt to "cancel" out the swerve and maybe this is where people (including myself) have gotten the impression that some low squirt cues/shafts produce more spin.

I'm curious as to what you and others think about my dangerous thoughts.

JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've been thinking about low squirt shafts producing more spin and I think MAYBE, that since the shafts produce less squirt, the cue ball simply seems to swerve (curve) more when side spin is applied.

The lower amounts of squirt with a low squirt shaft(which sends the cue ball in opposite direction as swerve does) allows the cue ball to effectively curve more than a standard maple shaft (high deflection shaft) since there is less squirt to "cancel" out the swerve and maybe this is where people (including myself) have gotten the impression that some low squirt cues/shafts produce more spin.

I'm curious as to what you and others think about my dangerous thoughts.

JoeyA

I can see how it could make it seem that way.

There's also a reasonable theory that squirt actually reduces spin because the direction of squirt force is opposite to the direction of spin. But I don't think anybody believes it's enough of an effect to be noticable.

pj
chgo

 

[thefonz]

side or no side just like maid service

i had been a LD shaft user for almost 16 years (started playing with them-ps. predator weren't the first ones) and have recently gone back to regular shafted cues. i think that you just have a better sense of feel and control with them. if you have a great stroke it doesn't matter what you play with, you can get used to it. i think a lot of mainstream LD shafts have more of a benefit to the beginner/intermediate player than the advanced amature or professional.

just my two cents worth anyways...

 

[Monstermash]

Wow, you guys are tough. I knew that I was going to get some backlash but holy crap! Lol.

Here's the thing. When I started this thread I stated this was my opinion. And it still is. I think it's completely stupid that they charge $200 or more for a shaft because they drill a hole in the end. To me it's a gimmick. Do I claim to be the formost expert? No, I never claimed that. But I am a very good player and I know what I like and what I don't like. I've played with a Predator shaft on many occasions and to me they are a complete waste of money, period.

I know you're all experts , so there's no way I'm going to change your opinion but IMO you've all just fallen into the marketing hype of these shafts. And really, thats what it is. And the problem is they have done a good job at it. So good that they have you all convinced that this is the end all be all and there is nothing else. I don't say this because I think I'm a better player or I know more, but the truth is most players will look for anything that they think will give them an advantage whether it's perceived or real. And that includes falling for marketing hype from a company that tell them they are going to play better because of this new "technology". I'm guilty of it as well. I know when I first started playing seriously I looked for the "golden cue". You know the one.... the one that is so great that it plays by itself and you can't miss with it. Remember when you were a little kid and you got a brand new pair of sneakers and suddenly you could run so much faster? It's basically the same concept. This new design comes along and with the right marketing it has a lot of people convinced that it will help you play better. The truth is it's not the shaft or the cue. It's the person holding it. Are there advantages to playing with good equipment? Of course. If you buy a decent cue it will help you play better than if you just go to Walmart and buy something in their sporting goods department. But there is a huge difference between something you buy at Wally World vs. a cue that was made with better materials and workmanship. The difference between the laminated shafts and the regular old straight maple shaft is far less dramitic

You guys seem to conveniently ignore some points I've made such as the best cuemakers not using this type of shaft. I'll ask the question again. If they are so great, why don't the best cuemakers in the world offer them as standard on their cues?

Before you answer, please keep in mind who I mean by the best cuemakers. I'm not taking anthing away from anyone because there are quite a few good makers out there that do offer these types of shafts on their cues. I'm talking about the best of the best. Have you ever seen a Southwest come standard with a laminated shaft? Don't worry, I'll answer that for you. The answer is no. If they are so much better than a regular shaft why wouldn't it be a no-brainer? Isn't SW known for a great hit and playability? Shouldn't they be using this technology if it's so far superior?


The defense rests you Honor.

 

[Pushout]

Wow, you guys are tough. I knew that I was going to get some backlash but holy crap! Lol.
.

I don't know whether you lurked before joining or how long, but you might have expected it. Some people like low deflection shafts and are quite vocal about. I don't and am quite vocal about it This type of post almost always gets heated discussions which will sometimes become serious arguments. I would personally be willing to try one again but it won't be any time soon, due to cost.
Have a nice day!

 

[Rich93]

Wow, you guys are tough. I knew that I was going to get some backlash but holy crap! Lol.

<snip>

You guys seem to conveniently ignore some points I've made such as the best cuemakers not using this type of shaft. I'll ask the question again. If they are so great, why don't the best cuemakers in the world offer them as standard on their cues?

Before you answer, please keep in mind who I mean by the best cuemakers. I'm not taking anthing away from anyone because there are quite a few good makers out there that do offer these types of shafts on their cues. I'm talking about the best of the best. Have you ever seen a Southwest come standard with a laminated shaft? Don't worry, I'll answer that for you. The answer is no. If they are so much better than a regular shaft why wouldn't it be a no-brainer? Isn't SW known for a great hit and playability? Shouldn't they be using this technology if it's so far superior?


The defense rests you Honor.

Others would know more than me, but I'm pretty sure that Predator and others have patented their innovations. Cuemakers who copied them would get sued, and a small operation (the best of the best, as you put it) can't afford to fight that legal battle. Someday those patents will expire, however, and then you may see it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

there is a huge difference between something you buy at Wally World vs. a cue that was made with better materials and workmanship. The difference between the laminated shafts and the regular old straight maple shaft is far less dramitic

What are the "huge differences" between Wally World cues and those made with better materials and workmanship? Are there greater physical differences between these cues than between "normal" cues and laminated? Between "standard" cues and low squirt? Describe the physical differences and explain why one kind of difference is more dramatic than another. If you can't, you're just blowing air.

why don't the best cuemakers in the world offer them as standard on their cues?

What are "them"? Who are "the best cuemakers in the world"? How do you know they don't offer "them"?

You make a lot of careless proclamations.

pj
chgo

 

[pooltchr]

folks have used that argument in golf for years....Pros DO NOT play with stock "of the shelf" stuff period..

Maybe sometimes, but not always. I remember when Kelly Fisher( I think she would qualify as a "pro")was first playing with a Fury cue. Fury was her sponsor, and she went back to the shipping room, picked out one she liked, at the weight she wanted, and went out and started winning. There was nothing about her cue that was any different from all the other Fury cues we shipped out.

Steve

 

[Monstermash]

What are the "huge differences" between Wally World cues and those made with better materials and workmanship? Are there greater physical differences between these cues than between "normal" cues and laminated? Between "standard" cues and low squirt? Describe the physical differences and explain why one kind of difference is more dramatic than another. If you can't, you're just blowing air.



What are "them"? Who are "the best cuemakers in the world"? How do you know they don't offer "them"?

You make a lot of careless proclamations.

pj
chgo

Careless proclamations? Alrighty then....

Lets see. I mentioned Southwest by name. I dare anyone to contest that they are not one of the best in the world. Do you want me to make a list of who I think are the best? Okey dokey......

In no particular order and by no means a complete list.

Mike Bender*
Thomas Wayne*
PFD*
Gina
SW*
Dick Black*
Joel Hercek*
Joe Gold
Bill Schick*
Paul Mottey*
Bill Stroud*
David Kikel*
Black Boar*

Those with the asterisk I have personally owned at one point or another. I have played with at least one cue from all the makers mentioned plus hundreds of others.

And what I said was, "they do not offer them as standard"

But apparently you again didn't bother to actually read what I wrote. And how do I know they they don't offer them as standard? Because I've looked at thousands of cues for sale and I have never seen any of the above mentioned makers offer a laminated shaft as standard coming with their cues. Also, I know several of the above mentioned makers personally and have had many, many discussions regarding cues, their construction, and what makes one better than another.

Here's the thing. If a product comes along that completely changes the market for something specific, whether it be billiards or electronics or any other product and it IS better than what is currently available then it will always replace whatever the current product it.

The electronics industry is a great example. When something new and improved comes along and is better than what is currently available all the manufacturers scramble to adopt the technology or they get left behind. Take for example televisions. Just a few years ago we were all going gaga over DLP tv's. Now they don't even make them any more. But all the manufacturers made them didn't they? Was it patented technogoly? Yes it was. But because it was the newest thing and it WAS BETTER then was was currently available it was offered by all the makers and they had to pay to use that technogoly if they wanted to keep up in the market. It's called licensing. Look at all the new technology in tv's. Up until recently it was Plasma and LCD and now the LED's are coming to market.

Back on the subject of the post. If the laminated shaft technology (and the gimmick hole in the shaft and thin walled ferrule) was so much better then what was currently offered, believe me, EVERYONE would be using them. They would be stupid not to.

And just to make sure I don't forget any of you're points.....

What makes a custom cue better than the Wally World special? I'm actually offended that you would think I don't know the answer to this. The problem is where to start because there are so many differences.

Lets start with materials. West Systems is arguably the best epoxy on the market for cue construction. Do you actually believe that the crappy Walmart cues are using anything even remotely resembling glue of that quality. I would venture to guess not. Not to mention a gallon of WS 105 costs more than ANY Walmart cue so........ you can do the math right?

Additionally, take a look at the shafts on the WM cues. You are lucky if they are straight right off the rack. So forget that the maple they use (if it is even maple) it's nowhere near the quality of what you would find on a custom cue. What about how the shafts are made? Do you think they make lots of small cuts on the shafts over a long period of time? Do you think the wood is aged properly? Do you think the wood is dried properly? I'm guessing not.

Lets move on to the wrap. Irish Linen? Nope, just cheap nylon thats usually not even glued on very well. How about the actuall finish on the cue? Think thats the same quality automotive clearcoat that most of the top cue makers are using? PPG? HOK? Dupont? Ummmmm.... nope. Just look at a WM cue wrong and there's a dent in the finish.

Finally, lets talk about the overall contruction. Are the butt sections made using three seperate peices like most high quality custom cues? Nope. They are usually just one peice of very poor quality wood that has been painted and made to look like they have points (if that is the design theme intended) with more paint or decals.

So, there we have it. A quick comparison of Walmart cues vs. custom cues. Any questions?

Do yourself a favor Patrick. Never accuse someone who you don't know of "blowing hot air" because you end up looking pretty silly if they end up knowing more than you thought. Or even better, if they know more than you do. Don't think for a second because I'm still somewhat new here that I don't have a clue.

I'm just curious, what kind of cue/shaft do you play with?

 

[Cornerman]

I've been thinking about low squirt shafts producing more spin and I think MAYBE, that since the shafts produce less squirt, the cue ball simply seems to swerve (curve) more when side spin is applied.

Yes, at least if you consider it as overall effect from swerve. For example, if a normal shaft on a certain shaft has X squirt to the left and Y swerve to the right, then the same shot with a low deflection shaft will be dominated by the swerve. This has been my biggest knock on lower deflection shafts: the swerve variable (which in my opinion is the tougher variable) has a higher effect and can wreak havoc with players who have played successfully for years with a normal shaft.

I'm curious as to what you and others think about my dangerous thoughts.

JoeyA

My opinion on your thoughts here Joey is that I've been saying this for years and years online. So, great minds, yes, but it's also been written about, so you're either safe or among the insane. Your choice.

Fred <~~~ dangerous and insane

 

[Cornerman]

I know you're all experts , so there's no way I'm going to change your opinion but IMO you've all just fallen into the marketing hype of these shafts. And really, thats what it is. And the problem is they have done a good job at it. So good that they have you all convinced that this is the end all be all and there is nothing else.

I know you won't read this, but the problem here is that.... you haven't read your own thread! That's no way to have a conversation. You might want to actually read the responses. Most of the responders who have told you that it's not a "gimmick" are the same responders who know that it's not an "end all be all." Since you're not reading this either, your universe won't suffer some made up conundrum explosion.

They do what they claim. Some people will swear by low deflection shafts. Many others don't swear by them. Why don't you seem to understand that?

The defense rests you Honor.

I don't think you even understand what your case is. Maybe if I make it to Country Club, we can talk about it, since it's obvious you're not quite getting it on here.

Fred <~~~ knows it's not gimmick but knows it's not an end all

 

[CreeDo]

I think this is one of those cases where a guy posts as a 'question' but really he's not asking for other's opinions.

He just wants to make sure everyone knows his and he's in no danger of debating it intelligently or altering it.