God Given Talent

[mrayntexas]

Maybe we are in agreement but are just using a different word to describe the same thing. You say Ability and I say Talent. Whichever word you use, it defines something that some people have and most people dont.

Do you truly believe that everyone on the planet could be doctors, astornauts, or lawyers and the only thing they have to do is try hard? And if they fail at being any of those things, it is because they didnt try hard enough?

The sad fact of the matter is humans are not born exactly the same. Some of us are better with books, some are good with our hands, some are good at creating things like art and music, and some are good with athletic ablilty.

I would love for you to tell all the guys in the Minor Leagues that the only reason they are not in the Majors is because there work ethic sucks and that they are not trying hard enough. Is that what you really think?

 

[mrayntexas]

Not true. There's much more involved than just making a cue go straight or a bat or golf club swing properly. Few have had the proper training to start with. For your example, look no farther than the Phillipines or China. They have different training than we do, and look how many in those two countries would be considered pros on the world stage if they had access to that stage.

I think by bringing up China and the Philippines actually proves my point. I have been to the Philippines about 7 times and I am married to a Filipina. Some people know about the tier system that they use there. I cant speak for China but in the Philippines they realize that playing billiards would be a good way to provide for there family. Every kid in the Province who takes up the game at an early age do it not for sport, but as a job to earn money. And once again, for every Efren, Bustamante, and all the other top tier players over there, there are tons of kids who just dont have the Talent to get there. And it is not because of lack of effort. They realize there are not very many ways to earn money and how important it is to succeed but still cant.

 

[Gmanpoke]

LOL - ok, you give up 100:1 on the money and we play some. I will bet $10 a game and you bet $1000 per game. I will freeze up 100 game's worth of action for you.

I got the worst of it at 18:3 and now you trying to trap me up with odds on the money.:grin:

The most important ingredient to success is "want to". I've been around many successful people in various endeavors. Most highly successful people I've been around, are single purpose driven. They sacrifice so much to achieve success in just one discipline.

Having said that, as bad as I play, there is no way I could tell anyone what it takes to be a champion. No bet JB. But, next time your in Oklahoma City or Tulsa, send me a PM and we'll play $10 or $20 a game.

 

[JB Cases]

I think by bringing up China and the Philippines actually proves my point. I have been to the Philippines about 7 times and I am married to a Filipina. Some people know about the tier system that they use there. I cant speak for China but in the Philippines they realize that playing billiards would be a good way to provide for there family. Every kid in the Province who takes up the game at an early age do it not for sport, but as a job to earn money. And once again, for every Efren, Bustamante, and all the other top tier players over there, there are tons of kids who just dont have the Talent to get there. And it is not because of lack of effort. They realize there are not very many ways to earn money and how important it is to succeed but still cant.

I bet if we were able to truly study those kids then we'd find less desire in most of them.

Another problem is people thinking that kids who do something at an earlier age are "more" talented. So if you have two ten year olds and one can draw his ball and the other one is struggling then it's assumed that the one who can is much better and he gets the encouragement and training while the other one is either subtly or overtly told that he isn't good enough.

This is the exact issue that the Khan Academy addresses. They let kids learn at their own pace which means that some kids race ahead and then stall at the harder tasks while others plod along and then get through the harder tasks at about the same pace.

I actually don't know how formal the tier system is in the Philippines. maybe someone from there could chime in and discuss it. I don't recall that they have a particularly formal system of grooming talent over there.

In China, where I live, there are now some government backed schools which are taking kids who show some aptitude and providing them with world class training. They have the same scientific approach to it that they apply to most other sports that the government decides is worth trying to become world class at. But they also discourage those who don't progress fast enough and some of those players don't enjoy the luxury of government paid training. If you can call it luxury.

Instead they go it on their own and let their desire fuel them and they have had some success with that.

But even here you often find that the top players have had a background in pool and snooker from a young age through their parents. Xiao Ting Pan's parents owned a pool room for example.

 

[mrayntexas]

I bet if we were able to truly study those kids then we'd find less desire in most of them.

Another problem is people thinking that kids who do something at an earlier age are "more" talented. So if you have two ten year olds and one can draw his ball and the other one is struggling then it's assumed that the one who can is much better and he gets the encouragement and training while the other one is either subtly or overtly told that he isn't good enough.

This is the exact issue that the Khan Academy addresses. They let kids learn at their own pace which means that some kids race ahead and then stall at the harder tasks while others plod along and then get through the harder tasks at about the same pace.

I actually don't know how formal the tier system is in the Philippines. maybe someone from there could chime in and discuss it. I don't recall that they have a particularly formal system of grooming talent over there.

In China, where I live, there are now some government backed schools which are taking kids who show some aptitude and providing them with world class training. They have the same scientific approach to it that they apply to most other sports that the government decides is worth trying to become world class at. But they also discourage those who don't progress fast enough and some of those players don't enjoy the luxury of government paid training. If you can call it luxury.

Instead they go it on their own and let their desire fuel them and they have had some success with that.

But even here you often find that the top players have had a background in pool and snooker from a young age through their parents. Xiao Ting Pan's parents owned a pool room for example.

Being broke and hungry is a great motivator to have desire.

Do you truly believe that everyone on the planet could be doctors, astornauts, or lawyers and the only thing they have to do is try hard? And if they fail at being any of those things, it is because they didnt try hard enough?

The sad fact of the matter is humans are not born exactly the same. Some of us are better with books, some are good with our hands, some are good at creating things like art and music, and some are good with athletic ablilty.

I would love for you to tell all the guys in the Minor Leagues that the only reason they are not in the Majors is because there work ethic sucks and that they are not trying hard enough. Is that what you really think that they have less desire than the guys in the Majors?

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe we are in agreement but are just using a different word to describe the same thing. You say Ability and I say Talent. Whichever word you use, it defines something that some people have and most people dont.

Sure, but as I said at the end of the day initial ability is NOT the reason that great performers become great. That's what the research shows. In fact many people who became the best at what they do, who became famous for what they do, were NOT the best at an early age. They were not accepted to the best schools, nor were they taken on by the best coaches, they were considered NOT to have enough talent to succeed at what they wanted to do.

And yet they became the best, often redefining the very activity they did and raising the bar for everyone else that followed.

Do you truly believe that everyone on the planet could be doctors, astornauts, or lawyers and the only thing they have to do is try hard? And if they fail at being any of those things, it is because they didnt try hard enough?

Yes and No. I certainly believe that barring physical handicaps any human is born with pretty much the same capabilities of any other human. The no part is that every human is not born into the same circumstances. So it's the old nature/nurture argument.

The sad fact of the matter is humans are not born exactly the same. Some of us are better with books, some are good with our hands, some are good at creating things like art and music, and some are good with athletic ablilty.

Yep, and again the research shows that even if you have an early aptitude for any of these things it's not the factor that determines world class success.

I would love for you to tell all the guys in the Minor Leagues that the only reason they are not in the Majors is because there work ethic sucks and that they are not trying hard enough. Is that what you really think?

Once again it's not just work ethic. Desire has to be coupled with opportunity. Lots of factors at play which determine whether someone who is good enough to play in the majors actually gets the chance to do so.

There are plenty of stories of people who were good enough to be on top but for a variety of reasons they never got the shot. How about we go ask the guys in the minors if they feel like they are LESS "talented" than the guys in the majors.

Because you seem to be implying that they are less talented and they know it. As a group I'd say that they probably have less skill overall because obviously one criteria for picking players to move up is performance and the best performers are going to stand out and constantly be plucked out of the minors. But individually I'd bet that most of the minor leaguers are pretty close to the stats of their major league counterparts.

 

[mrayntexas]

As a group I'd say that they probably have less skill overall because obviously one criteria for picking players to move up is performance and the best performers are going to stand out and constantly be plucked out of the minors.

You say SKILL and I say TALENT.


Heres an interesting read:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...beats-talent-only-if-talent-doesn-t-work-hard

 

[JB Cases]

Being broke and hungry is a great motivator to have desire.

Well being hungry is certainly a motivator as is being broke. But having desire isn't enough, there must also be opportunity. Increased competition pushes the bar higher and higher so that the desire must be even more and more.

You are twisting what I am saying though. I said that in studies of TOP performers the intangible thing that separates them from those below them is desire. And it's also the common bond that all top performers who have been studied share.

I am not talking about a gaggle of ten year olds in the Philippines who are looking at gambling at pool as a way out of poverty. That's the BASELINE just as little league in the USA is the BASELINE for most kids as a path to eventually becoming a great player.

 

[JB Cases]

You say SKILL and I say TALENT.


Heres an interesting read:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...beats-talent-only-if-talent-doesn-t-work-hard

Ok. If Talent = Skill then where does skill come from?

 

[mrayntexas]

Ok. If Talent = Skill then where does skill come from?

I think thats the million dollar question. People in your corner say it comes from hard work and desire. I am of the opinion that it is something you naturally have or you dont.

Listen I wish life was more fair and that I was born with the gift of singing. I would be a lot richer. Unfortunately I have come to terms with the fact that life is not fair and that no amount of desire, singing lessons, and practice is going to make me sing like Luther Vandross. LOL!!

It would be nice if all I had to do to be a great composer is to work hard and have the desire to be great. But I would bet the farm that it would not happen. Hans Zimmer , who in my opinion, is the greatest modern day composer of our time, has nothing to worry about.

 

[JB Cases]

You say SKILL and I say TALENT.


Heres an interesting read:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...beats-talent-only-if-talent-doesn-t-work-hard

Good find. I like to read dissenting opinions backed by study. One takeaway is that the researchers said that basic abilities are necessary for amateur performance and sometimes necessary for expert performance.

I won't disagree that having some aptitude for something is a good start. And perhaps if two people start at the same time and both work equally hard with all the same coaching and opportunities then we can see that the one who had more aptitude at the beginning will still be better at the end.

The thing is that with so many variables it's impossible to say which one is the real predictor of success. Lots of people with an aptitude for something don't make it while lots of people who weren't "as good" early on do make it. And some of them actually develop into the best ever at what they do even though early in their life no one would have predicted it.

Or let me put it another way, there is no God Given Talent to be the best at something or to be world class at something. There are certain genetic tendencies that allow some people to be bigger and faster and stronger and perhaps smarter than others but without the work these things mean nothing.

It's not the extra head start that you might have that determines greatness, it's what you do with it.

The guy who started this thread has the attitude that either you have it or you don't. Maybe you have that attitude as well.

I disagree. I say that maybe at some point in your life you "had it" more than I did but that doesn't mean you always will.

Now imagine a world where everyone truly feels that they can accomplish anything. A world where people try super hard to accomplish whatever they want.

What sort of world would that be?

In my mind it would be a better one than a world in which everyone thinks that they are limited by God's choice of who gets what abilities.

 

[JB Cases]

I think thats the million dollar question. People in your corner say it comes from hard work and desire. I am of the opinion that it is something you naturally have or you dont.

Listen I wish life was more fair and that I was born with the gift of singing. I would be a lot richer. Unfortunately I have come to terms with the fact that life is not fair and that no amount of desire, singing lessons, and practice is going to make me sing like Luther Vandross. LOL!!

It would be nice if all I had to do to be a great composer is to work hard and have the desire to be great. But I would bet the farm that it would not happen. Hans Zimmer , who in my opinion, is the greatest modern day composer of our time, has nothing to worry about.

Why do you think that if you were born with the "gift" of singing that you would be rich?

Lots of people can sing and they aren't rich. In fact I would say that there are more POOR world class singers out there than rich ones or even well off ones.

So let's assume you are a great singer, I magically give you Luther Vandross' voice.

How do you get rich from there?

 

[naji]

Ok. If Talent = Skill then where does skill come from?

No human is born talented, however, one might have the seed to be nurtured to become talented, for example if your voice is exceptional, that is a gift, but if left untrained it would be worth nothing. In pool it is impossible for anyone to hold a cue for first time runs a rack of 9 ball or even make 1st shot; therefore, talent should not be mentioned dealing with pool; it is 100% skill and practice, the better teacher you have, the faster you become a good player.

 

[mrayntexas]

Good find. I like to read dissenting opinions backed by study. One takeaway is that the researchers said that basic abilities are necessary for amateur performance and sometimes necessary for expert performance.

I won't disagree that having some aptitude for something is a good start. And perhaps if two people start at the same time and both work equally hard with all the same coaching and opportunities then we can see that the one who had more aptitude at the beginning will still be better at the end.

There are certain genetic tendencies that allow some people to be bigger and faster and stronger and perhaps smarter than others but without the work these things mean nothing.

The guy who started this thread has the attitude that either you have it or you don't. Maybe you have that attitude as well.

I do agree with the OP that you either have it or dont. I also stated earlier in this thread that TALENT alone will not get you anywhere. WORK ETHIC alone will not get you anywhere. TALENT with WORK ETHIC will get you to the top.

Earlier in the thread you were saying that talent meant nothing and that hard work and dedication is the only thing that matters. Im just glad that now you are admitting that there is in fact something GENETIC that makes some people more apt in certain areas than others.

If you are a Religious person then instead of GENETIC you can use the word GOD GIVEN TALENT. If you are Agnostic or Atheist then you can use the word GENETIC. Bottom line it means the same thing. Some have it and most dont.

 

[JB Cases]

I do agree with the OP that you either have it or dont. I also stated earlier in this thread that TALENT alone will not get you anywhere. WORK ETHIC alone will not get you anywhere. TALENT with WORK ETHIC will get you to the top.

Earlier in the thread you were saying that talent meant nothing and that hard work and dedication is the only thing that matters. Im just glad that now you are admitting that there is in fact something GENETIC that makes some people more apt in certain areas than others.

If you are a Religious person then instead of GENETIC you can use the word GOD GIVEN TALENT. If you are Agnostic or Atheist then you can use the word GENETIC. Bottom line it means the same thing. Some have it and most dont.

Then I guess we have to disagree. Talent as you mean it means nothing.

It doesn't. If you are religious then you understand that God didn't give you anything. "God helps those who help themselves....." and all that. So you can't believe in the Bible and believe that any person is any better than any other by birth.

You know what makes kids bigger and stronger?

Protein.

Every parent wants to believe that little Jimmy or Jennie is super talented. Every little thing they do is seen as evidence of that awesome talent.

I prefer to think of kids performing at "adult" levels as a sign of interest rather than talent. Kids who are fascinated by something try to copy it and they, being unecumbered by social covention telling them that they can't, often are able to do things that amuse and surprise adults. And because the adults typically weren't themselves interested in the activity at that age they then live vicariously through the performances of the kids.

Anyway this isn't about where people start it's about where they end up.

So Jimmy can run faster than Jennie when they are five. Big deal. If they both work hard and Jimmy stays stronger then he will probably stay faster. But if Jennie discovers a rocking coach who teaches her to lean a certain way to improve her aerodynamics then she might leave Jimmie in the dust.

I don't agree that there is a talent gene. Genetics are not talent. Environment is not talent. God doesn't hand out talent.

You don't either have it or not. Everyone has "it" and the "it" is desire. Everyone has that to a certain degree. Those that have the most desire who also have opportunity become famous and then everyone else who doesn't have that desire idolizes them and praises their amazing "talent" when in fact their amazing ability comes from hard work.

What is one thing Efren does (or did) that other people don't do which helps him to be better than his fellow pros? Something simple that anyone CAN DO but most people look down on.

 

[mrayntexas]

You know what makes kids bigger and stronger?

Protein.

So you are saying that the high school kid who wants to be a linebacker in the NFL just needs to eat more protein and hell get bigger and stronger? You mean it has nothing to do with the fact that the Genes that his parents gave him only allow him to be 5' 6" and 130lbs?

Genes have more to do with who we are and what we can become than you think. You look at the kids from kindergarden on up to high school and guess what you will see. Fat kids, skinny kids, and athletic kids. Most people know that all kids eat horribly. Nothing but fat and sugar. Why is it that one kid eats candy bars and soda and gets fat while his buddy eats the same thing and cant gain an ounce if he tried. Its called Genetics. Heck I work with a guy right now that lives off of Sugar. The guy drinks a 6 pack of soda, has about 3 monsters a day, and eats nothing but carbs yet is rail skinny. If I consumed that much sugar in a day I would blow up.

The fact is we are not all born the same. I know guys who have been lifting weights for most of there adult lives who are smaller than guys who do very little at all. Its not because of PROTEIN INTAKE.

 

[JB Cases]

So you are saying that the high school kid who wants to be a linebacker in the NFL just needs to eat more protein and hell get bigger and stronger? You mean it has nothing to do with the fact that the Genes that his parents gave him only allow him to be 5' 6" and 130lbs?

Genes have more to do with who we are and what we can become than you think. You look at the kids from kindergarden on up to high school and guess what you will see. Fat kids, skinny kids, and athletic kids. Most people know that all kids eat horribly. Nothing but fat and sugar. Why is it that one kid eats candy bars and soda and gets fat while his buddy eats the same thing and cant gain an ounce if he tried. Its called Genetics. Heck I work with a guy right now that lives off of Sugar. The guy drinks a 6 pack of soda, has about 3 monsters a day, and eats nothing but carbs yet is rail skinny. If I consumed that much sugar in a day I would blow up.

The fact is we are not all born the same. I know guys who have been lifting weights for most of there adult lives who are smaller than guys who do very little at all. Its not because of PROTEIN INTAKE.

So how do you account for all the kids who are not like their parents?

This can go around forever. Wow you are so athletic....your parents must be too...no actually no one ob my family is over five feet and they are all accountants.

I already said that desire paired,with physical limitations does not work. The circle cannot become a square no matter how much it desires to be.

If you aren't going to read what I write before answering then maybe we should just agree that you have your view and I have mine.





www.jbcases.com

 

[softshot]

take 2 people who have never played the game before.. EVER...

have them play a match.... the winner will have more "Talent" than the other...

to beat anyone else.. you are going to have to work at it...

 

[mrayntexas]

I already said that desire paired,with physical limitations does not work. The circle cannot become a square no matter how much it desires to be.

That is exactly my point. Everyone has a different limit on how good they can become. If you took 10 regular people and taught each one exactly the same with the same equipment and the same practice time it would look like this: 2 would be sub par and clearly below everyone else. 6 would be somewhere around the same give or take. 2 would be clearly better than the rest. There is a reason for this. Its called genetic potential. You can use this senario in most things in life. If you put in the work along with the dedication and proper training that go with it, then you will become the best that your genetic potential will allow. Period. Some people have more genetic potential than others. This is a fact that cant beat disputed.

The problem is you refuse to call this genetic potential what it is. GOD GIVEN ABILITY.

 

[JB Cases]

That is exactly my point. Everyone has a different limit on how good they can become. If you took 10 regular people and taught each one exactly the same with the same equipment and the same practice time it would look like this: 2 would be sub par and clearly below everyone else. 6 would be somewhere around the same give or take. 2 would be clearly better than the rest. There is a reason for this. Its called genetic potential. You can use this senario in most things in life. If you put in the work along with the dedication and proper training that go with it, then you will become the best that your genetic potential will allow. Period. Some people have more genetic potential than others. This is a fact that cant beat disputed.

The problem is you refuse to call this genetic potential what it is. GOD GIVEN ABILITY.

You don't know that. That's the popular myth that all the people would fall into different ranges. But you are not accounting for DESIRE.

Which of the people WANTS to succeed more than the others? That's what you can't measure.

And even if there is a genetic difference that would account for the variance at the TOP LEVEL of performance then it's certainly not "god" given. It's simply an act of randomness driven by evolutionary biology. Of course if you believe in ghosts then you believe ghosts can grant you powers.